Replies

[[It is the action of successful communication, not the message itself.]]

Which is what I thought- Information theory is soemthign different than Shannon theory I beleive? so back to the original point I brought up

“Wouldn’t information theory necessarily be ID (unless one tries to argue that nature somehow creates information/metainformation?”

Lower info can arise I guess by pure happenstance- accidently (although certainly not as efficiently and complexly as Macroevolution would have demanded), but metainformation certainly can’t arise naturally, and would need an intelligent designer to design it per species in such a way as to keep species fit and thriving (I think informaiton theory entails both lower info and metainfo If I’m not mistaken?)

I suppose one coudl study metainformation without having to infer a Designer, but the need for one woudl still be there- I can’t see any way around it really- Information theory has to start at the beginning- origins

[[it doesn’t matter which message came first.]]

Not when discussing the communication of the message, no. But when discussing the origin of the message, it needs to either be examined in a stepwise fashion, or from the initiation point- since we know metainformation must exist first to keep all lower info in concert in species, it begs the question, who or what was the designer

[[mathematical models often address organizations and systems as logically self-contained. ]]

This is interesting, and brings up the ‘closed loop’ hypothesis of Rosen again This organization, and self containment again beg the question- how did they get that way- who or what designed it to be self contained- Mathematics studies what is contained, but info theory studies, or should study how the closed, self-contained systems, became so organized- Was it information that existed on the outside that created and designed the info on the inside of the closed system? Was there a need for an intelligent designer? Or was nature capable of doign htis in a stepwise fashion?

I’m not real familair with Rosen’s work, but I don’t see how he can skip over first cause and go right to final cause

[[My favorite example is Max Tegmark’s level IV parallel universe wherein that which exists “in” space/time is a manifestation of mathematical structures which actually do exist outside of space and time.]]

On a new Ghost hunting show, they have a hypothesis that the ‘spirits’ that peopel encounter are from another dimension (gettign tired- I’ll see if I can explain htis right)- one of their theories is that if they, the Ghost hnters, recreates the tiem period when these supposed spirits lived, that it will incite activity as though the present day hunters are in the past- uggh- not explainign htis well- There’s a theory called ‘risidual’ spirit activity, where the spirit doesn’t know they’ve passed on, and keep ‘goign through the motions’ like walkign htrough doors that are now walls, going up stairs that have since been moved- etc- it’s liek they are living in another dimension, and we in this dimension are gettign glimpses of theirs in the past- it’s liek a parallell universe thing

Wow- gonna have to re-explain this better tomorrow- I don’;t beleive in Ghosts (I do beleive in evil spirits and angels though), but this show the other night got me thinking about the whole parralel universe thing (It was clearer to me the other night lol) & the theory of the Ghost hunters kinda touched on tat a bit which I thought was interesting- kinda liek hte future interactign with hte present and past & how there may be a paralell universe where we’re al lthe same, but living slightly behind our present time here, or slightly ahead- Anyhow- I’ve strayed a bit

[[The second issue you raise, metainformation, is related not to the mathematics of successful communications (Shannon) but rather to the content of the message itself which is something completely irrelevant to Shannon’s model!]]

Yes I agree- but you had said ‘informaiton theory’ not Shannon theory which is what I responded to- will have to read rest of your post tomorrow

Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

Which is what I thought- Information theory is soemthign different than Shannon theory I beleive?

To the contrary, Shannon’s theory is the foundation, the origin of the discipline called “information theory.” Or put another way, to understand algebra one must understand the basics of numbers, addition, subtraction, etc.

His model defined what information “is.” It is the action of successful communication, not the message itself.

Information (Shannon, successful communication) is the reduction of uncertainty in the receiver (or molecular machine) as it goes from a before state to an after state.

The receiver becomes “informed” as a result of a successful communication. That letter in your mailbox is not information. When you read it, then and only then, are you informed and “information” has occurred.

Shannon’s mathematical model applies to the discrete case and in my view, also to the continuous case, e.g. Rosen. It need not concern itself with which instance is being examined – whether God’s saying “let there be light” or an episode of “Criminal Minds” being aired or the transmission of DNA or my sending you a letter.

Williams’ metainformation is a horse of a different color. His is not a mathematical model of that class – it is an interdisciplinary complex systems theory focused on the rise of functional complexity in biological systems. It is not portable to another discipline, e.g. engineering.

His theory focuses on causation, cause>effect and therefore an arrow of time. For that reason, origins are within the domain of his investigation unless he were to specifically exclude them by postulate or axiom.

As a Christian, I immediately see this unreasonable effectiveness of the math (Wigner) as God’s copyright notice on the cosmos.

But even diehard atheists can and do benefit from these mathematical models.

I’m not real familair with Rosen’s work, but I don’t see how he can skip over first cause and go right to final cause

He doesn’t skip over first cause. He entails first and final cause in the circular model.

And the only arrow of time he retains is essentially Shannon’s mathematical theory of communication in a continuous case, e.g. message, encoding, channel, decoding.

As long as the material system is closed to efficient cause, by his definition, it is alive. Again, his definition: "a material system is an organism if, and only if, it is closed to efficient causation."

He is speaking of material systems, not spiritual ones. And he is not saying the material system is closed to other causes.

On your musings about dimensions, Tegmark’s Level IV Parallel Universe and the ghost hunting program …

Dimensionality has a very specific meaning in mathematics and physics. It is geometry per se - one of my favorite subjects!

But in common parlance, the term is often used to mean not altogether “here” as in perceptible to the physical senses.

And I suspect that was the thrust of the ghost hunters’ conjecture, that the spirit of the departed is kind of here and there all at once.

By my discernment, this is not incompatible with Scripture. Jesus appeared in the midst of a closed room, the temple, ark, Holy mountain and Eden/paradise are seen in both heaven and earth. And we are advised to be cautious, that we may be entertaining angels unawares,

Jewish mystics have described the firmament as not being a matter of geometry, physical here and spiritual there, earthy here, heavenly there - but rather a boundary between the material and spiritual. Some have conjectured it might have something to do with the speed of light (the speed limit of the universe) – or the vibration of strings in string theory.

Others speculate that it is indeed related to the geometry - the mathematical and physical dimensionality of "all that there is."

It is my testimony that I am truly dead and alive with Christ in God. Or to put it another way, I am more aware of being alive in Him than I am of being alive in the flesh. Until this physical body plays out, my spirit is anchored to it. But one day I will weigh anchor and be free of it.

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Colossians 3:3

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. - Galatians 2:20

Information (Shannon, successful communication) by the way is what I believe Einstein and Newton missed. Both of them reasoned that there was a Creator but both of them died before the insight of information theory, and I suspect they would have reasoned differently had they known.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: - Romans 1:20

Indeed, had Darwin lived to see the insights of information theory and molecular biology he might have reasoned differently about a "warm little pond." Crick, at least for awhile, embraced panspermia because of those insights.

Or to put it another way, one can have a glimpse of the magnitude of the cosmos, the wonder of quantum field theory or the faithfulness of the physical laws and reason that there had to be a beginning of space, time and causality itself. But if he does not perceive the information, that living things are a message (DNA) being communicated, then he might deduce that whereas there was a Creator that man is an insignificant part of the creation and certainly not worth a second thought to God.

But we who have “ears to hear” discern Jesus, Logos, the Word of God, speaking to us. We perceive not only that we are a message being communicated, but that there is also a spiritual message which we can and do receive which enlivens us. The new person we are is a new spiritual message being communicated. Therefore we understand it is not about the flesh, that His words truly are spirit and life.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. - Matthew 4:4

Therefore, to us the magnitude of the cosmos or the minutia of the quantum etc. are insignificant compared to the truth of who He is and thereby, who we are.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39

Every where we look, we perceive His speaking.

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard.– Psalms 19:1-3

God’s Name is I AM!