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To: Alamo-Girl
" Your definition of "rational reality" evidently involves circular reasoning."

Rational reality means reality is logical. The fact that it is logical not only allows it to be described by mathematics; it allows it to exist!

Re: The geometric dimensions of this world apply to the physics of this world only, not to any other. If you are going to talk physics, keep in mind that the fact that this 4d world arose out of a more fundamental physics of higher dimension. It did not arise out of nothing as in the nonscientific claim of ex nihilo by virtue of the conservation of energy.

" One cannot project the math/physics of the present universe onto prior universes when it is convenient and then not, when it is not convenient."

There is no such projection. The fact that this universe has it's own gemetric structure, which differs from that from which it arose as a phase change, does not mean that 4d structure exits in the higher physics. It can be understood by noting this world appears as a phase change. That phase does not exist in the phase from which it changed from. The energy did though.

"most physical cosmologists recognize this and consider the failure to explain the beginning of real space and real time as a weakness of their theories, e.g. Steinhardt's cyclic, Hawking's imaginary time."

There is no general failure. The lack of knowledge refers to the particulars.

" To find a closed cosmology, you must move away from the physical to the pure math or theology."

No. Reality is reality and is neither math, nor theology, nor does it arise from either of those.

" Max Tegmark's Level IV Parallel Universe..., i.e. that what we perceive from a perspective inside 4D is a manifestation of mathematical structures which actually do exist outside of both space and time."

Nevertheless, those physical structures are a part of the 4d which arose as a phase change. Those "other structures" are not what they arose from.

"Logos which is a Name of Jesus Christ, God the Creator. Logos is the Greek word which translates to Word and also to logic."

God is a person. Logic is a set of objects with properties and the relationships between them. A person is not logic.

" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4"

This passage refers to a person. It says all things that were made were made by Him. It may be hard to grasp, but nevertheless, reality is and was not made.

67 posted on 09/16/2009 12:55:04 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: Alamo-Girl; spunkets
Re: ...reality is and was not made.

I should clarify that this refers to the physics which always existed and from which this world arose out of.

68 posted on 09/16/2009 1:02:41 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: spunkets; betty boop; TXnMA; DallasMike; MHGinTN; metmom
Rational reality means reality is logical. The fact that it is logical not only allows it to be described by mathematics; it allows it to exist!

The unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in the natural sciences (Wigner) is like God’s copyright notice on the cosmos.

There is no such projection. The fact that this universe has it's own gemetric structure, which differs from that from which it arose as a phase change, does not mean that 4d structure exits in the higher physics. It can be understood by noting this world appears as a phase change. That phase does not exist in the phase from which it changed from. The energy did though.

Again, a phase change is physical. It requires space, time and physical causality to occur – it requires preexistence of a "from" phase state.

In the absence of space, things cannot exist.

In the absence of time, events cannot occur.

Physical causality requires both space and time.

In your argument, each of these is taken as a "given."

But they are not axiomatic in physical cosmology, cosmology, philosophy or theology.

So if you wish to embrace them as your core beliefs, then you are certainly free to do so.

But they do not constitute objective truth by virtue of your belief in them.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4"

This passage refers to a person. It says all things that were made were made by Him. It may be hard to grasp, but nevertheless, reality is and was not made.

No, God IS. That is His Name, I AM.

What you call “reality” is merely a part of the Creation.

Man is not the measure of God.

I’m heading out now, but will check back later this evening.

69 posted on 09/16/2009 1:32:26 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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