Posted on 08/16/2009 6:47:29 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
MOSCOW, July 15 (RIA Novosti) - The United States was unable to detect the presence of Russian strategic submarines in the Arctic before they test-launched two ballistic missiles, a Russian intelligence source said on Wednesday.
Russia carried out test launches of two Sineva intercontinental ballistic missiles from two Delta IV class nuclear-powered submarines, located near the North Pole, on July 13-14.
"The American radars certainly detected the missile launches but their location took them by surprise," the source said.
The first missile, flying a ballistic path, hit its designated target at the Kura testing grounds on the Kamchatka Peninsula, while the second, fired with a flat trajectory, destroyed a target at the Chizha testing site on the White Sea.
The source said that the launch area, covered by ice floe, was heavily patrolled by Russian attack submarines and the Americans were unable to detect the arrival of two strategic submarines before the launch. "At the same time, U.S. reconnaissance satellites are unable to detect submarines under thick ice floe in the Arctic," he said.
The region around the North Pole is a perfect place for launches of ballistic missiles because it allows the submarines to arrive in a designated area undetected and to shorten the missile flight time to the target.
The RSM-54 Sineva (NATO designation SS-N-23 Skiff) is a third-generation liquid-propellant intercontinental ballistic missile that entered service with the Russian Navy in July 2007. It can carry four or 10 nuclear warheads, depending on the modification.
Russia plans to equip its Delta IV class submarines with at least 100 Sineva missiles
At the same time, U.S. reconnaissance satellites are unable to detect submarines under thick ice floe in the Arctic,” he said............................ Its even tougher to salvage sunk submarines in that area. I’m sure our killer subs took notes.
I don’t know the source. Is RIA Novosti reliable?
Nope. It is Russian state-owned media. Sort of like MSNBC, if you think about it.
Its the home town propaganda machine. How simple of them to think that our subs are not laying silent there watching them.
Have you forgotten who the American people elected as president and who is in control of Congress? These Russians know more about the status of what Bama and Crew are doing to US than we here in the US know. Someone may well have known but I suspect those 'walls' designed under Clintonism were reinstalled day one of this presidency.
One word: Fallujah I. Or Vietnam. etc.
Our forces are only as good as they are allowed to be.
I have no reason to suspect that our rules-of-engagement and wargames and cold-war tactics have not been scuttled into an incoherent fetal position in the same way our diplomatic positions now slobber at the feet of tyrants.
I, like justmythoughts, have more confidence in the claims of a Russian propaganda outlet than I do in our current Commander in Chief.
Yeah, right! I bet those Russian boomesr were completely oblivious to our 688s that were undoubtedly shadowing them the whole time.
Good Lord! Please stop with the mental imagery!
How do you know if it is a raindrop or bird pee?
Context.
The article admits that the US tracking systems recognized the missiles as soon as they were launched.
The article claims that the US intelligence community was taken by surprise because they either weren't expecting a launch in that area, or that they didn't even know the Russian subs were there, or both.
I think we can all agree, with the Russian 'propaganda' outlet on the former, that the US detection technology worked. Why lie about that?
But having seen what happened on 9/11, I have no fantasies that the intelligence community at the CIA/NSA/DIA are necessarily some James-Bond-like omniscient superheroes either.
If the DoD admitted that our chase subs had been diverted away from the area by the CinC to do scientific research on Whale Sounds instead of monitoring Russian activity, would any of us be surprised?
This article sounds more impressive then it is. As always, the Russians are the masters of bluff and bluster.
First as I understood it, it was always Russian Navy strategy to keep their boomers under the ice in “boxes” of ocean. Protecting the boomer were attack subs, ASW task forces, and patrol planes whose job was to keep the 688s from entering the box. Maybe this strategy worked, and maybe it didn’t. Either way this maneuver is nothing new or unusual. Welcome to 1968.
Second, it has nothing to do with “outwitting” U.S. strategic defenses. I see nothing to indicate these launches would be any more effective then any other sub launched missile against the existing defenses, where applicable.
I think it’s a little more right wing than MSNBC.
The seas are full of US sub sensors. They can send data back by VLF radio signals...very short bursts.
MAD still applies to sane states like Russia...so don’t worry too much our boomer force can kill Russia in less than an hour and they realize this.
Worry about terrorists getting small yield nukes.
I wouldn't want to be on one of those subs. Those liquid fuels can be highly toxic.
Takeaway from this: as far as the Russians know, we were unable to "detect the presence of" two subs in the Arctic. Only a handful of the crews of the 688s and a few people in the Naval Submarine command will know for sure if that is true or not. Maybe it is, or maybe the Russians simply failed to detect the hunters watching.
"The American radars certainly detected the missile launches but their location took them by surprise," the source said.
Wrong. By definition, if a radar is sweeping the area, probably means someone expected they might see something there. :-O Grin, think about it...
The source said that the launch area, covered by ice floe, was heavily patrolled by Russian attack submarines and the Americans were unable to detect the arrival of two strategic submarines before the launch.
Not smart on the Russian's part. With all those subs chasing around in a relatively small area... Lots of noise. Lots of opportunity for say a single US hunter to quietly monitor the whole thing. Undersea warfare is not a team sport. It works best when they get to hunt alone. There is no safety in numbers - only more noise and the need to coordinate tactically and avoid fratricide.
"At the same time, U.S. reconnaissance satellites are unable to detect submarines under thick ice floe in the Arctic," he said.
Probably true. Probably very little signature. Breaking through the ice to launch, that's going to leave a mark. I wonder if satellites can determine ice thickness? If so, that'd be great. They'd have an always up-to-date map of where it was even possible for a sub to come up to launch, and could concentrate on those areas in real-time... Grin, somebody call up Lockheed or Raytheon and ask them what their radars are capable of. ;-) (as if they'd tell us!)
The region around the North Pole is a perfect place for launches of ballistic missiles because it allows the submarines to arrive in a designated area undetected and to shorten the missile flight time to the target.
It is a good spot for the geometry of the flight. But as I understand it, it is a horrible place to operate a navy in. The idea of being undetected is iffy. Sure, sonar conditions aren't good, and once on station a boomer can simply drift along at bare steerage way... Anyone ever wonder why US subs and crews are outfitted and trained to say out significantly longer than their Russian counterparts? Could it be that maybe they sail over there, then trail the Russian SSBNs through their entire mission, then come home? I don't know, but just looking at capabilities, you have to ask yourself why? What would this be good for, how could I use this?
The Russians are formidable opponents to be sure, but they are not 10 ft tall...
We still have boomers with nukes?
I know we have converted some of them to conventional warheads (mighty expensive for a 1 ton of TNT explosion) and Seal equipped.
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