You wrote:
“Of course. If one believes Jesus is God, one WILL live differently - because of one’s belief. But the works are a DEMONSTRATION of devotion, not a substitute for it.”
Do you sin? Did you sin BEFORE you became a Christian? All the Christians I’ve ever met have been sinners both before and after becoming Christians. If they become mired in sin and DO NOT REPENT they will not be saved. You might have repented ten years ago, but might commit murder and not repent of it. Will you still be saved then? No. Protestants, through their unbiblical beliefs, work themselves ino illogical corners. Here’s an example: http://www.geocities.com/area51/quadrant/2141/sinstory.htm
“Where we differ on assurance is on who is responsible. You say we are. Jesus says He is.”
I am not denying Jesus is responsile for our salvation. I am insisting that we are responsible for our damnation. Jesus suffered for us BUT WE MUST REPENT. John the Baptist called on people to repent. Jesus called on people to repent. And St. Peter made it plain enough: “Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord.”
The idea that we are not called on to repent and cooperate with God’s grace is completely anathema to scripture (yes, pun intended). If we don’t cooperate we are damned. God does not save us against our will. He redeemed us, but we must be open to Him or we are damned.
“There will be non-Christians who enter the church and cause divisions. The solution isn’t to allow church leaders to interpret scripture for you, but “...building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God...”.”
The Church was the author of scriptures under the supervision of the Holy Spirit. Jesus sent the Church into the world to teach and baptize. The Church was given such authority and power because she is His bride and continues His mission on earth.
“And you can be assured of success, because of “him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy”.”
If I were to put several supposedly Bible believing Protestants in a room and ask them to discuss baptism they would come to different conclusions. Can infants be baptized? Some would say yes, others no. Does it effect a soul? Some say yes, others no. And so on. So, which of those Protestants is the “stumbling” one? What yor view does is make out the Holy Spirit to be a liar. That’s not your intention. That’s just the result. Since all of those suppsedly Spirit filled people can’t agree on the scriptures then the Holy Spirit must be a liar. I find that impossible to believe. The only other realistic option is that some men can believe they are led by the Spirit even when they are no. I am currently trying to help out a young Protestant woman I know who is mistaking what apparently is paranoid schizophrenia for visions of heaven and angels and so forth. She believes she is a prophet.
“That doesn’t mean we aren’t to be pro-active in following Him, or to be lax in doing good. That is what the new birth is all about - becoming a new creation.”
You’re still missing the point. Jesus is responsible for our redemption. If we don’t cooperate with Him we will be damned. That means more than just being “pro-active in following Him”. Our actions cannot make our salvation, but our actions can make the ground of salvation in us more fertile or more barren.
“Assurance of salvation isn’t a feeling.”
It isn’t a reality in any case.
“Many have feelings, and they are deceitful - we are capable of lying to ourselves.”
Thanks for admitting that. Now, square that thought - that we lie to ourselves - with the idea with the idea of the Spirit guiding all believers yet the believers disagreeing with one another. How can you? Clearly it is not the Holy Spirit that is the problem.
“In a sense, it is best to live as though there is no assurance, seeking to draw ever closer to God and trying to follow His will ever more closely.”
I agree, but I can’t see how you do. Why would someone need to live a lie? If absolute assurance is the truth then there is no need to do any more than what has been done. Also, to do more might - in your already expressed view - shift the “responsibility” as you put it from Christ to us. You need to think this through and make your view more consistent Right now you’re all over the place.
“But Jesus said He’ll take care of those given to Him. We cannot keep ourselves. Jesus can.”
Now you’re suggesting that Jesus saves men against their wills? We need Jesus’ grace, but if we aren’t responsible for ourselves and our actions to some great extent then we can’t be blameworthy either.
Even Martin Luther recognized this error of individual Scripture interpretations once he started to see for himself the damage it was causing....Unfortunately the damage had already been done
From Luther....
“This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet” De Wette III, 61. quoted in O’Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208.
“Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul; they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers.” Walch XIV, 1360. quoted in O’Hare, Ibid, 209.
“We concede — as we must — that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?” Sermon on the gospel of St. John, chaps. 14 - 16 (1537), in vol. 24 of LUTHER’S WORKS, St. Louis, Mo.: Concordia, 1961, 304.
“All the Christians I’ve ever met have been sinners both before and after becoming Christians. If they become mired in sin and DO NOT REPENT they will not be saved. You might have repented ten years ago, but might commit murder and not repent of it. Will you still be saved then?”
The problem is that you are confusing a decision with a new creation. That is why I hate it when someone says, “Ask Jesus to come into your life...”
NO! We die, and are raised a new creation - born again. “”Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
If we ‘make a decision for Christ’, we make a decision...but what we need is to be born again. “3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.” - Romans 6
“You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness...For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God...” Romans 8
If you have the Holy Spirit in you, you WILL repent. Not maybe, or might - you WILL, for it is God Himself convicting you. Jesus Himself said He would see us through to the end.
The assurance of the believer isn’t required for salvation, but it will follow with time. “...but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God”
Is it possible to deceive ourselves? Yes. There are people who deceive themselves into believing they are prophets - but that doesn’t mean prophets don’t exist. There are people who deceive themselves into thinking they are flowers - but that doesn’t mean flowers do not exist. There are people who deceive themselves about being children of God - but that doesn’t mean no one has been born again.
“If I were to put several supposedly Bible believing Protestants in a room and ask them to discuss baptism they would come to different conclusions.”
When I’ve done it, the answer isn’t quite as contrary as you indicate. I can’t think of any Protestant I’ve met who objected to Believer’s Baptism. Some - typically those that have been aligned with a government power at some time - permit infant baptism. As imperfect men, ALL of us have to fight against interpretations tainted with what we wish it said, versus what Scripture actually says. However, on matters of importance, it simply isn’t all that difficult.