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To: Mr Rogers; Marysecretary
You wrote "Don't argue with Marysecretary...argue with Jesus." I agree with Jesus. Jesus disagrees with Mary, and you. And as expected, Protestants are not posting verses that don't say what they claim to say. I thought this would come from Mary. Mary, instead, just rattled on that what she believed was biblical - without any attempt at proof. As I already posted, Jesus expects us to obey Him and His Father. That means a commitment that endures to the moment of death really. To turn your back on Christ and to die would leave you without Him. There are no second chances after death. And no, that's not what Purgatory is either. Thus, there can be no absolute assurance of salvation. Such is logically impossible and biblically in error. "Salvation is an act of God. Jesus says, "I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."" I agree entirely. And no where in there did Jesus commend the idea of absolute assurance. "Or as Jude put it, "To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ..."" Yes, and what does Jude say later in that same letter? 20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. If we are saved with absolute assurance than building ourselves up in faith is unnecessary. If we are saved with absolute assurance than there is no need to counsel people to "Keep yourselves in God's love..."
777 posted on 07/13/2009 10:38:07 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
"As I already posted, Jesus expects us to obey Him and His Father."

Of course. If one believes Jesus is God, one WILL live differently - because of one's belief. But the works are a DEMONSTRATION of devotion, not a substitute for it.

Where we differ on assurance is on who is responsible. You say we are. Jesus says He is.

The full passage of Jude says, "But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. They said to you, "In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions." It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. And have mercy on those who doubt; save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh. Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

There will be non-Christians who enter the church and cause divisions. The solution isn't to allow church leaders to interpret scripture for you, but "...building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God...".

And you can be assured of success, because of "him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy".

That doesn't mean we aren't to be pro-active in following Him, or to be lax in doing good. That is what the new birth is all about - becoming a new creation.

Assurance of salvation isn't a feeling. Many have feelings, and they are deceitful - we are capable of lying to ourselves. In a sense, it is best to live as though there is no assurance, seeking to draw ever closer to God and trying to follow His will ever more closely. But Jesus said He'll take care of those given to Him. We cannot keep ourselves. Jesus can.

780 posted on 07/13/2009 11:13:35 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: vladimir998

1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Read all of 1 John 5. It talks of assurance.


785 posted on 07/13/2009 2:05:56 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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