Posted on 06/03/2009 11:13:53 AM PDT by lewisglad
In a commentary today, Creighton theologian R.R. Reno parses the justifications for killing an abortion doctor like George Tiller, and finds that alleged murderer Scott Roeder came up short–though barely. Reno says that “The blanket condemnation [by Catholics bishops] of ‘violence’ seems unhelpfully expansive” and so he wants to explain that the reasons Tiller’s killer was wrong “are not as simple as they seem.”
Reno says that under Christian thinking, such an action would have to satisfy three conditions: It would target the guilty, not the innocent; it would have to be necessary (principally to protect others); and it would have to be an act of self-defense that does not “violate the principle of legitimate authority” by being premeditated and calculated violence, as Tiller’s killing was. Reno says the suspect got two out of three:
The emphasis on “unlawful use of violence,” the evocation of “vigilantism,” and the description of Tiller’s killer as a “vigilante killer” are all exactly right. We are all sinners, but it is painfully obvious that Dr. George Tiller acted in wanton disregard for the sanctity of life. Killing him did not violate the principle of innocence. Moreover, he gave no evidence of stopping. As a result, perhaps something like the principle of necessity can be satisfied. But it is certainly obvious that his killer was acting as the law unto himself. He arrogated to himself the roles of jury, judge, and executioner. He violated the principle of legitimate authority.
That strikes me as far too close to justification, as others would argue that unjust laws shouldn’t stop us. With their redesigned site, the First Things blog now allows comments, and the first commenter on Reno’s thread pressed him to go further, asking how Reno’s argument would apply to Bonhoeffer or the Nazi resistance. Good question.
(Excerpt) Read more at commonwealmagazine.org ...
And the Lakers won. God is good.
I happened on Jeremiah 18 a couple of weeks ago and found that chapter to be filled to the brim with all manner of theological gems.
I posted this thread and have been looking for other sermons on the chapter.
And my reply to her was "Jeepers" which roughly means I never would have expected that from him.
I very much appreciate the follow-up pings in the hopes that he will extend and clarify the earlier remarks as all of you shed light on why that initial post was so disturbing.
What if Tiller’s widow were to hire a hitman to kill Roeder? Using your logic, that would be perfectly OK.
I Don't think so. I suspect that anyone who has seen his handiwork will be glad that he is dead. Most people who consider themselves "pro-choice" are repelled by the likes of Tiller. Roeder not only killed him, but brought light to his abominiations.
I will pray that Roeder is acquitted. He has already saved more lives than he took, and it's only Thursday.
You didn’t answer the question.
Do YOU think abortion is murder?
Let us say that there is a murderer (person A) who operates only between midnight and 4 am when everyone is asleep. Let’s say that the government creates a law that says that isn’t murder because they were asleep anyway, and now they continue to be in sleep.
At the time of their deaths they were “sleepers.” They’re still “sleepers.”
So the murderer continues killing from midnight to 4 am. Lots of liberals are happy with it, because it rids us of the surplus population.
Person B comes along and offs the murderer, but he gets charged with murder, because his act wasn’t between midnight and 4am, and the murderer was awake and not asleep.
Is person B a murderer? Is person A a murderer...after all, the law says he isn’t?
Is it just possible....vaguely possible...that the LAW is wrong?
I do.
That is why I find it hard to condemn Roeder. Roeder obviously believes he killed a cold blooded serial child murderer. Do you believe that? Really?
Tiller ping
I've learned within that "Jeepers" lies a multitude. 8~)
I think you meant to say... DIVINE PROVIDENCE. :-)
Thanks
LOLOL!
Interesting questions but I don’t see how they relate to the hypothetical point I was making.
Good move, HG.
(By the way, your original view doesn’t leave much leeway for the Lord’s work in each person’s life. He’s much more likely to turn a live sinner into a - sometimes reluctant - prophet or preacher than a dead innocent.
He is the Creator and has been known to resurrect people. But that’s rare.)
Greeting from the great gun toting state of Texas.
No, I don't think I ever accused you of being a Calvinist.
I'm pretty sure that I did call you a "Jack Chick comic book reading snake handler" (we're not in the Religion Forum, so I can say Jack Chick all I want) once or twice. :-)
Abortion is murder at some point. Late term abortion definitely is. And Roe vs. Wade is terrible law. But shooting an unarmed man in church in the name of life doesn’t help the cause at all.
Public opinion had turned our way. Hopefully, the public will recognize it as the abberation that it is. But comments supporting it from pro-lifers endanger any gains the pro-life movement has made.
Yet, Roe v. Wade is declared "stare decisis". It is settled law that cannot be assailed is how it is presented. And it was not enacted by legislature, but was imposed by judicial fiat.
It is a usurpation, a disenfranchisement, and the seeds of violent opposition lie in that very fact.
I am reminded of Johnathan Edwards sermon. His text was the following:
Christians need to wait upon the Lord. We don't always see justice, but in due time justice will be given.
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