Posted on 05/19/2009 10:36:33 AM PDT by Pontiac
Jeffry Picower and Stanley Chais, two philanthropists who invested heavily with Mr. Madoff, and Carl Shapiro, one of the money manager's oldest friends, are among at least eight Madoff investors and associates being scrutinized by the U.S. attorney's office in Manhattan, these people said.
Federal investigators have gathered evidence they think will show that Messrs. Picower and Chais told Mr. Madoff how much in returns they wanted. Their accounts soon would reflect those amounts, people familiar with the investigation said.
Messrs. Picower and Chais already have been accused of seeking fictitious gains in civil lawsuits brought against them by Irving Picard, an attorney at Baker & Hostetler LLP who is trustee in the bankruptcy liquidation of Mr. Madoff's firm, Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC. As part of his effort to recover assets for Mr. Madoff's victims, Mr. Picard alleged that Messrs. Picower and Chais sought -- and then received -- better returns than thousands of other Madoff investors.
In some cases, their returns reached 300% or 950% a year, Mr. Picard has alleged. The two men made withdrawals from Mr. Madoff's firm of more than $6 billion in supposed profits above and beyond the principal they deposited for themselves, family members and foundations, the lawsuits allege.
(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...
Information I've seen indicates that they thought he was perpetrating a DIFFERENT kind of scam than the one that eventually caused the collapse of the whole thing.
Some yes, some know, but for the professionals in the pool(Fairfield Greenwich for the most obvious example) they simply had to know that the consistency of the returns and their magnitude, were not possible.
I can believe that the rubes in Palm Beach may have had no idea. People can believe amazing things about their money.(and their kids)
I mean, “Some yes, some NO.” (how does that happen??)
G R E E D!!!
we are all victims of a ponzi scheme. it’s called Fractional-reserve banking. You can also throw social security in there for sh!ts & giggles. However, 99% of americans are too busy worrying about which douche bag or baggette will be voted off american idol to worry about it. The house of cards will collapse and be replaced by another and the entire cycle will repeat. Bread and Circuses....
Remember that some investors were able to receive either losses or gains on paper from Madoff, whatever they needed at the time.
I know. Allowing banks to lend out less than their deposits is just asking for trouble.
There.
Edited to fix the missing part.
Not sure what you're multiplying by ten. $900 is less than $1000.
Please feel free to show any error in my math.
Reading your posts over the years proves you do.
Clearly the money is loaned repeatedly to 'create' money that did not exist in the original $1000 dollars.
You love to play coy, I know, so here is a Wiki link for others who care to look: Toddster mash
The multiplier can vary of course, but the result is the same.
The money supply grows every time a loan is made.
All backed by Helicopter Ben and his crew. Oh yeah, and the "full faith and credit" promise.
I'm not pretending anything. Bank reserves are a fraction of deposits. That means they loan less than their deposits. You think they loan more? Show me how.
The money supply grows every time a loan is made.
Show me where I disagreed with this.
A bank with $1000 and a 10% reserve requirement can loan $900. When they do, $900 has been created.
Thanks for the link, it shows deposits are greater than loans. LOL!
Where does the 'new' 900 dollars go, hmmn?
More than likely back to the bank.
Perhaps not the original bank that created the 900 dollars, but nevertheless, back into the banking system, to be loaned out again, albeit fractionally.
With 90 dollars in reserve, the new bank creates 810 'new' dollars and the each of those new units devalues the currency a little more. and so on and so on, until the original 1000 loses steam.
But not to worry, the private Fed will print up another Trillion or so to 'jump start' the economy and fractionally lend it out again.
C'mon Toddster, stop with the semantic game. We all know how the Ponzi scheme works.
When I borrowed money, it went to the seller of the house or car I bought.
With 90 dollars in reserve, the new bank creates 810 'new' dollars
You mean a $900 deposit results in a new loan of less than $900? LOL!
C'mon Toddster, stop with the semantic game.
$1000 < $900.
$900 < $810.
Doesn't look like a semantic game to me.
Maybe this is one of the reasons Grasso was paid $160 million to run the NYSE. My guess is he was in the know.
$1000 originally printed up and then deposited by Toddster.
Since the Bank only has to keep $100 on tap, but still tell everybody they have $1000 deposited, the $900 bones can be lent out again. JOAT gets a 900 dollar loan and buys a crapmobile off Craigslist to drive to work.
Said Crapmobile seller deposits his 900 bucks into 1st Bank.
The Bank can now loan out 810 bucks to little Sarah who wants to fix up her bathroom. Now the Bank really only has $190 on deposit but tells everyone they have $1900. So in just two lending cycles, Toddster's original money nearly doubles on 1st Bank's books. After the next lending cycle, 1st Bank books show they have $2710 deposited in the bank, but in reality the only have $271.
(Pretty sweet gig if you can get it.)
We can keep going, but it's obvious 1st Bank has @$$loads more 'deposits' than it really has.
Oh sure, that's what built our economy. Fake money. Easy to get fake money. The problem starts when people start to lose confidence in the arrangement, like what is happening now.
Since everything is predicated on 'full faith and credit' when faith fades the economy stutters.
So yeah Toddster, the bank has way more money than is deposited, but technically it doesn't because it "only lends out 90% of its deposits."
Of course those 'deposits' are fake but they can technically say they have the 10% required to keep them liquid.
Of course MOST of those dollars moving around have never come off a printing press. They exist only as ciphers in a computer, which 1st Bank created, not the FED.
So if you want to stand on semantics, fine. The reality is the bank creates deposits for itself which did not exist before or come from the Federal Reserve. It ends up with substantially more dollars than were deposited by Toddster, the original 1000. JOAT and Sarah and all the others merely 'deposited' spinoffs of that thousand clams most of which never existed in the first place.
The bank has $1900 in deposits, loaned out $1710 and has $190 in reserves.
(Pretty sweet gig if you can get it.)
I know. Lending out less than your deposits, crazy!
We can keep going, but it's obvious 1st Bank has @$$loads more 'deposits' than it really has.
More deposits than loans or reserves.
I get it.
The loans are based on nothing, which is why we are now in this crisis.
When the banks can leverage by 10X the 'deposits' and loans at full value and then get us to TARP them out, that is where the evil of Fractional Reserve Banking comes fully into play.
My great-grandchildren (at least) will be obligated to pay for this greed-game of multiplied 'money' that has now started to collapse, and the perpetrators of the scheme will be living off the labor stolen from us in the form of our plundered 401Ks while we pay back Bernake's loans.
Truly a sweet gig if one can get it.
If they loan 90% of deposits they clearly aren't loaning 1000% of deposits. Maybe you shouldn't try to do the math?
then get us to TARP them out, that is where the evil of Fractional Reserve Banking comes fully into play.
It's true, we wouldn't need TARP if banks had to reserve 100% of deposits.
while we pay back Bernake's loans.
Bernanke is Chairman of the Fed. TARP involves the Treasury.
it isn’t “fake money” insofar as I gotta work for it. there is a vaporware aspect to it but what do you suggest as an alternative? notice that everyone who laments the system in published form oftentimes are reneging on their debts!
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