Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Five Stages of Collapse
Energy Bulletin ^ | Nov 11 2008 | by Dmitry Orlov

Posted on 05/16/2009 5:56:38 PM PDT by Lazamataz

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 101-120121-140141-160 ... 221-236 next last
To: semantic
but now many are starting to realize that the excess liquidity is what has been driving the equities markets for the last 2 months.

Or IOW, the anticipation that inflationary boom may succeed has been driving up equities in true greater fool fashion.

That's because any price spike in commodities (eg oil) and food (eg oil/gas->fertilizer) will have another immediate effect at reducing consumption

The other effect it will have is helping to kill our chances at real recovery by strangling industry that needs those raw materials. A big part of today's recession is fallout from the commodity boom a year ago.

The US was built by self-reliant people and a significant portion of the population still share those characteristics.

I also share your optimism and always have. The creativity, innovation and entrepreneurialism don't go away just because the Fed is propping up insolvent banks with endless bailouts. Those won't go away with the reflationary bubble or the final collapse. OTOH, I have my money parked in speculative investments (e.g. buying tech in March and selling recently) and some inflation hedges (e.g. Canadian energy trusts). Those don't help the long term economic recovery. For that we need one simple thing: higher (i.e. market controlled) interest rates.

121 posted on 05/17/2009 8:45:07 AM PDT by palmer (Cooperating with Obama = helping him extend the depression and implement socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 117 | View Replies]

To: Toddsterpatriot
There is no guarantee that QE will force long rates down. I do think the idea of buying longer term Treasuries is silly.

I'm glad we agree on that. The market isn't going to win fighting the Fed's QE, but nor is the Fed going to override the market if/when they don't need to. I'm sure Bernanke has every intention of easing up on QE ASAP. But I don't think he realizes the extent to which the market has been betting on his actions versus investing for long term growth. We will probably always disagree (me versus you and BB) on the value of credit to spur long term growth.

122 posted on 05/17/2009 8:50:10 AM PDT by palmer (Cooperating with Obama = helping him extend the depression and implement socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 116 | View Replies]

To: Southack
Now watch salaries, stocks, and home prices. More to the point, watch shipping, trucking, and air cargo rates (leading indicators for ups and downs in the business cycle). They’ll let you know in short order if the enemy really is here. Or not.

Good points. Thanks.

123 posted on 05/17/2009 8:57:22 AM PDT by GOPJ (If printing money was the answer, why don't Haitians "print" their way out of poverty?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 103 | View Replies]

To: grey_whiskers
I think he is talking about the collapse of the energy supply line due to an economic collapse; not a depletion of the world's energy sources. For example, people need money for energy and energy companies need the credit for supply. If the people don't have the money for energy, credit will not be extended for supplies. I think it is quite possible in an economic collapse.

And you are right about him not knowing much about the American culture and the people of that culture outside the humanist secular experience and re-education efforts of limo liberals. All he seems to be aware of is liberalism's invented minority race tribe separatist foreign or invented socialist cultures.

On the other hand, a lot of Christians do not live as Christians. Even those who attend church are often the products of a lifestyle and identity of consumerism and materialism.

124 posted on 05/17/2009 9:10:13 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Lazamataz

Bookmarked


125 posted on 05/17/2009 9:16:34 AM PDT by oldfart (Obama nation = abomination. Think about it!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: GOPJ
The Chinese are "balking" now... if they take over the as the world' s "reserve currency" holders , we'll never be able to print our way out of debt again.

Despite their noises to the contrary and popular belief, the Chinese are on our side in wanting an inflationary boom (or if you are in the BB camp, sustained growth spurred by greater availability of credit). Their crony capitalism feeds off of our real capitalism. To some extent their diligence and proficiency at copying needs our creativity and innovation. Due to this convergence of interests they continue to happily play along with our games of propping up the dollar (or if you are in the BB camp, our pursuasion of other central bankers to unfreeze credit and spur demand).

126 posted on 05/17/2009 9:17:51 AM PDT by palmer (Cooperating with Obama = helping him extend the depression and implement socialism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 120 | View Replies]

To: lentulusgracchus
One thing he knows about is the liberals’ re-invented culture with no roots in American culture. I we would call it humanist multiculturalism.

However, he does not realize that much of America has not been culturally cleansed yet and he knows not of what exists beyond what he is “educated” to know about America by liberals.

Economic collapse will be harder on those who have adopted liberalism's culture and identity which is devoid of anything higher than materialism and socialism's entitlement. That would be the Federal dependency crowd who think they have free stuff coming to them and do not have the internal resources and personal character or morals to cope with entitlement drying up. They will steal and gang thug on others.

The author is not of aware of ideas of American private altruism. He thinks if we don't like Federal welfare we are stingy and mean and give nothing and help no one. That is what liberals have told him and it is probably the only experience of those immersed in the humanist culture encounter.

127 posted on 05/17/2009 9:22:35 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Osage Orange
Because there is a different experience in America for different people. A lot of people newer to the US are totally unaware and disconnected to American life beyond liberalism's post Christian-American humanist multicultural invention.

But one true observation he makes is that we are a society that depends upon being protected from each other by a huge police force and political correctness. He does not know that most Americans are something totally different than the liberal re-education invention.

Gangs and crime are a reality in the US in proportion to the success of liberals to cleanse the Christian American secular culture from certain targeted groups. We have a huge number of immigrants like the author, who know nothing of America from experience and roots and only know what liberals tell them. That is going to be a problem in an economic collapse.

Strong American families have kept and raised their children in their own culture but everyone is competing with liberalism's re-education of their children. This shows in the younger generation's mistaken sense of entitlement and unrealistic self esteem.

128 posted on 05/17/2009 9:36:01 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Citizen Tom Paine

But in an economic collapse who is going to drill it without financing and who is going distribute it and who is going to buy it?


129 posted on 05/17/2009 9:38:26 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: appeal2
Anyone who lived through the 70’s and 80’s of massive violent crime and property crime before the crackdown on crime in the early 90’s, do not have a hard time seeing the violent crime that could happen in America should the governments become weak. I don't know if it will take the form of the Mexican kind of crime - kidnappings. it will most like be more American- murder, rape, pillage and slaughter (riots).
130 posted on 05/17/2009 9:46:02 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: meatloaf

That is exactly what I think. He is a foreigner, unfamilar with our social and cultural realities beyond what he has heard from limo liberals. But he has given a good framework or outline of what to expect and, I think, what is likely to happen.


131 posted on 05/17/2009 9:49:11 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Travis McGee; Jeff Head; Southack; Squantos; Cyber Liberty; oldfart; GOPJ; Yardstick; bert; ...

Well, had a chance to mull this over.

I don’t think I’m buyin’. Some of the things Orlov says are stages of collapse — and he cites the Soviet Union — never happened in the Soviet Union. There were, for example, never gangs of roving wastelanders. There was not a cultural breakdown.

Southack made a convincing argument that we are in a deflationary phase due to overproduction. I can kinda buy that. Look around — we simply have way too much stuff. We don’t need any more. Even a cheap apartment has in it, several TV’s, lots of furniture, one and maybe two cars outside....

So when the real estate bubble popped, the fear woke people up. “Holy crap!” they exclaimed, “I don’t need a fourth laptop after all!”

And the deleveraging of overconsumption began.

I suspect, like all trends, there will be overcorrection on the other side. We will see shortages, even. But collapse? I’m not seeing it.

Not even Obama can bring a collapse about. Remember the Soviet Union: They were ingrained to be communist and under severe government controls. No amount of prodding could make them change.

The same attains with us. We are deeply capitalistic, and we buck under government control. Obozo will find this out, in time.

I suspect the fact this guy is a Russian also colors his commentary. I don’t expect TEOTWAWKI.


132 posted on 05/17/2009 10:25:10 AM PDT by Lazamataz ("We beat the Soviet Union, then we became them." -- Lazamataz, 2005)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SaraJohnson; Nam Vet; dennisw; Jacksonian Grouch; SAJ; Toddsterpatriot; The Duke; ...

Well, had a chance to mull this over.

I don’t think I’m buyin’. Some of the things Orlov says are stages of collapse — and he cites the Soviet Union — never happened in the Soviet Union. There were, for example, never gangs of roving wastelanders. There was not a cultural breakdown.

Southack made a convincing argument that we are in a deflationary phase due to overproduction. I can kinda buy that. Look around — we simply have way too much stuff. We don’t need any more. Even a cheap apartment has in it, several TV’s, lots of furniture, one and maybe two cars outside....

So when the real estate bubble popped, the fear woke people up. “Holy crap!” they exclaimed, “I don’t need a fourth laptop after all!”

And the deleveraging of overconsumption began.

I suspect, like all trends, there will be overcorrection on the other side. We will see shortages, even. But collapse? I’m not seeing it.

Not even Obama can bring a collapse about. Remember the Soviet Union: They were ingrained to be communist and under severe government controls. No amount of prodding could make them change.

The same attains with us. We are deeply capitalistic, and we buck under government control. Obozo will find this out, in time.

I suspect the fact this guy is a Russian also colors his commentary. I don’t expect TEOTWAWKI.


133 posted on 05/17/2009 10:28:07 AM PDT by Lazamataz ("We beat the Soviet Union, then we became them." -- Lazamataz, 2005)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 131 | View Replies]

To: palmer; reluctantwarrior; WashingtonSource; Lurker; Keflavik76; gracie1; Sherman Logan; Aliska; ...

Well, had a chance to mull this over.

I don’t think I’m buyin’. Some of the things Orlov says are stages of collapse — and he cites the Soviet Union — never happened in the Soviet Union. There were, for example, never gangs of roving wastelanders. There was not a cultural breakdown.

Southack made a convincing argument that we are in a deflationary phase due to overproduction. I can kinda buy that. Look around — we simply have way too much stuff. We don’t need any more. Even a cheap apartment has in it, several TV’s, lots of furniture, one and maybe two cars outside....

So when the real estate bubble popped, the fear woke people up. “Holy crap!” they exclaimed, “I don’t need a fourth laptop after all!”

And the deleveraging of overconsumption began.

I suspect, like all trends, there will be overcorrection on the other side. We will see shortages, even. But collapse? I’m not seeing it.

Not even Obama can bring a collapse about. Remember the Soviet Union: They were ingrained to be communist and under severe government controls. No amount of prodding could make them change.

The same attains with us. We are deeply capitalistic, and we buck under government control. Obozo will find this out, in time.

I suspect the fact this guy is a Russian also colors his commentary. I don’t expect TEOTWAWKI.


134 posted on 05/17/2009 10:31:24 AM PDT by Lazamataz ("We beat the Soviet Union, then we became them." -- Lazamataz, 2005)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 122 | View Replies]

To: SaraJohnson

I don’t know if it will take the form of the Mexican kind of crime - kidnappings. it will most like be more American- murder, rape, pillage and slaughter (riots).

#########

I can’t tell you how much better this makes me feel...


135 posted on 05/17/2009 11:10:20 AM PDT by Atom Smasher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 130 | View Replies]

To: Lazamataz

Well, had a chance to mull this over.

###########

Does this mean no zombies?


136 posted on 05/17/2009 11:13:05 AM PDT by Atom Smasher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 132 | View Replies]

To: Atom Smasher
Does this mean no zombies?


137 posted on 05/17/2009 11:15:15 AM PDT by Lazamataz ("We beat the Soviet Union, then we became them." -- Lazamataz, 2005)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 136 | View Replies]

To: Lazamataz
I don't think it's a collapse we have to fear. What worries me far more is a unique strain of American Fascism.

L

138 posted on 05/17/2009 11:26:00 AM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 137 | View Replies]

To: lentulusgracchus

Yup.

When one looks at dictatorships such as Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia, they appear terribly efficient. Whatever the dictator decides is implemented without any wrangling.

However, when one studies the actual workings of the government behind the scenes, one invariably finds infighting and backstabbing that makes the implementation of decisions a great deal more difficult than is apparent on the surface.

In particular, one of the main ways the dictator keeps his position is by encouraging this infighting between factions, which means he often keeps competing initiatives going long after it is has become obvious which is most effective. This can easily be seen in the Nazi system where competing Luftwaffe, Army and SS weapons systems reduced the potential production of armaments.

Meanwhile in America decision were made and production actually was far more efficient.


139 posted on 05/17/2009 11:30:28 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Everyone has a right to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: Lazamataz

Thats beautiful! I needed that!

LOL!


140 posted on 05/17/2009 11:36:18 AM PDT by Atom Smasher
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 137 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 101-120121-140141-160 ... 221-236 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson