Posted on 04/10/2009 2:14:40 PM PDT by ConservativeStatement
“Muhammad Ali was one of the best heavyweights of all time but he’s also the most overrated athlete of all time.”
So true. He had an outsized personality, but when you look close enough, he wasn’t as dominant as they’d have you believe. He clearly lost to Frazier in ‘71. He came within seconds of losing in Manilla, when he asked for his gloves to be cut off. Luckily, Frazier’s corner called the fight first. When you watch the footage, Ali literally collapses after the forfeit is announced. And you can’t fake that sort of thing. It was real.
Not that Ali didn’t win. Damn close, that’s all I’m saying. Same thing with the “Rumble in the Jungle”. No other fight bolsters his legendary status like this one, but it was based on fortuitous timing, in my opinion. He unloaded on Foreman at just the right time, then Foreman screwed up the count. That’s big George’s fault, I realize. I’m not gonna say it was a fast count or anything. But it is obvious from the footage that Foreman was biding his time on the mat, and that he got at the most a milisecond after the ref says “nine.”
People say George never would have recovered. We’ll never know. Also, there was never a rematch. What if Frazier had never given Ali a rematch?
The point is Ali bested Frazier and Foreman by the narrowest of margins.
Not that he wasn’t the greatest boxer of all time. He could very well be, but it’s impossible to tell. It all depends on who’s fighting at what time, and how fighters match up. Rocky Marciano never lost, which is something Ali can’t say. Then again Marciano’s opponents weren’t as good as Frazier and Foreman. Then again again, it can be argued that Frazier at least, and possibly Foreman, were as good as Ali.
“I do not believe ali was ever knocked down twice in any of his fights”
yes he was, by Joe Frazier, Madison Square Garden, 1971.
One of the announcers claims he slipped, but he slipped right after Joe punched him hard, and I have a hard time believing in such coincidences.
which round did the second knockdown happen in ‘THE FIGHT’? none of my boxing history books, 1971 ‘sport magazines, 1971 ‘sports illustrated’ magazines mention a second knockdown that was put into the books as a recorded knockdown. if it was just your opinion that there was another knockdown that’s cool but I do not believe there was another recorded knockdown. I just watched the entire fight again (from the internet) last night and only one knockdown was recorded that I saw anyway. I might be in error, let me know if you find out something different. bobby
Everyone knows Frazier put Ali on his back in the 15th round. It was also my understanding that Ali went down in the 11th. I reviewed the footage, and to be sure, he left his feet.
Not sure whether or not this was registered as an “official” knockdown. I’m not any kind of boxing expert. Never fought myself, and only tune in to see the really big matches. Obviously, if a fighter slips or is tripped up, it shouldn’t count. After scanning the internet, I see the 11th round incident is usually referred to as a “slip” or a “stagger”.
Again, I don’t mean to beat up on Ali (Frazier did plenty enough of that for both of us). All I’m saying is when you look at the fights that made him a legend, he comes off as all too human. The Liston fight was one of the most bizzare sports events of the century, the Foreman fight was less brilliant strategy than shrewd trick and lucky timing, and Frazier lost by the thinnest of possible margins in Manilla.
I just viewed the 11th round again and from the footage I watched I did not see Ali leave his feet at any point or way. he did get staggered but nothing severe enough that meets any of the 4 criteria of what is required for the in ring ref to rule a knockdown as it happens (or the 2 ringside judges to add a knockdown determination to the official fight statistics after reviewing the fight later like they have been known to do, rare but it has happened)in a heavyweight professional title fight. Clay/Ali goes into the final books being officially being knocked down once in Ali/Frazier 1 and 3 other times in his pro career. Ali/Frazier 1, ‘the fight of the century’ lived up to the hype and things damn near stopped the evening of the fight. no TV, no radio (other than a ‘round summary’ following each round, how I got it) or by a theater, closed circuit transmission. long time ago huh? good to talk boxing with someone again, I have followed it extremely close since I was kid but I haven’t found very many boxing fans left lately, the younger ones seem to have gone for the mixed martial arts styles and I guess there are not enough older ones left period!
“I just viewed the 11th round again and from the footage I watched I did not see Ali leave his feet at any point or way.”
If you get HBO, watch the “Thrilla In Manilla” documentary. They show Frazier watching the slip/knockdown, which comes very early in the 11th round. I don’t know at what time, but both Joe and I definitely see Ali go down. He didn’t kiss the canvass, but he was at least on one of his knees.
If it wasn’t official, that’s fine. But the “slip” curiously comes right after Frazier hits him, so I’ve always thought of it as knockdown.
“good to talk boxing with someone again, I have followed it extremely close since I was kid but I haven’t found very many boxing fans left lately, the younger ones seem to have gone for the mixed martial arts styles and I guess there are not enough older ones left period!”
I am relatively young, a teenager during the Lewis/Holyfield/Tyson era. It’s true, mixed martial arts has conquered the world. I think it has less to do with the superiority of that sport (the rules are less stifling, but how fun is it, really, to watch people grapple on the ground?) than the complete lack of popular heavyweights. Vitali Klitschko is no Ali.
I will find that HBO show, sounds like it has some footage that might not have been shown on that first NBC replay of the fight, and I have might not have seen it. IIRC the ‘71 fight has only been shown on TV in it’s entirety just a few times. (I myself have never seen it on TV once since that first showing, but youtube has had it up forever). I never see it on any of the boxing specials on various channels and have you noticed on the Ali retro looks at his career they show every fight BUT Ali/Frazier 1? I just started watching the mixed fighting and is def. interesting and different, those men are in incredible shape. from 1972 thru 1988 I went to every closed circuit (showing if it was not on TV) of every big time fight, any weight class or division but there was nothing like the last couple of days leading up to an Ali title fight. whether a guy disliked him or liked him, it was really something, all the fancy dressers, pimp like characters running around, fancy cars around the theaters. etc. at one time I had a heck of a bunch of his old ‘fight programs’ ya could buy at the theater fight night but they are all gone or lost now. the only thing I have left, memorabilia wise, other than boxing books is a ticket stub from the Ali/Foreman’s ‘rumble in the jungle’ fight. saw the black and white theater closed circuit broadcast of that fight live at the Paramount theater, Seattle Washington. that was my favorite fight of the entire bunch.
“...and have you noticed on the Ali retro looks at his career they show every fight BUT Ali/Frazier 1?”
As far as I remember, the Will Smith movie “Ali” skipped over the Frazier fights altogether. It showed Frazier and Ali all buddy-buddy during Ali’s hiatus, when Frazier helped him get his license back, but then they jumped ahead to Foreman. How this big-budgeted, highly honored supposed bio-pic could skip over arguably the most important fight of the 20th century is beyond me (monstrous gate, two undefeated champions, Ali’s first loss, highlight of Frazier’s career, etc).
How many of his prime fighting years did Ali lose during his forced retirement? Was he ever as good after he came back as he was before he left? Who of all the great heavyweights do you think could have beat Ali in his prime?
I was at a high school music convention when he walked past me and I lurted out "Mr. Frasier!".
He turned shook my hand and took me to a corner of the lobby where we had a few minute one on one conversation. He had no reason to do it, he was just a gracious and nice man.
“How many of his prime fighting years did Ali lose during his forced retirement?”
3 and a half, I think.
“Was he ever as good after he came back as he was before he left?”
Absolutely. He beat three of the greatest fighters of all time—Frazier, Foreman, and Norton—after the hiatus. The best he fought before was probably Liston. There was no decline until after ‘75. All we really lost in his time off was him beating up on more people whose names we’d never remember anyway.
Some people say he lost to Frazier the first time because he was rusty, but he fought a couple tune-ups before Joe, and both were legitimate contenders. You could say Ali lost a bit of his former speed and grace, but he traded it for mass, which no doubt helped him against bruisers like Frazier and Foreman.
Since he was undefeated before the hiatus and lost five times after, a mythology has grown around his “lost years.” I think that’s hype.
“Who of all the great heavyweights do you think could have beat Ali in his prime?”
Frazier and Norton beat him in near the height of his powers, so obviously they could. Holmes beat him after he should have retired, but he would have had a chance. I think Foreman, aside from Ali’s legendary reflexes, was physically superior. Especially after Big George learned his lesson from the rope-a-dope, he had a chance.
Tyson, in addition to being basically the exact same person as Liston, failed every big test he ever faced. Holyfield was always overrated. Lewis, on the other hand, I’ve always felt was underrated. They suspected he had a weak jaw ever since Oliver McCall knocked him out, and Hasim Rahman confirmed it. I doubt he was as strong as Ali proved himself to be in Manilla.
I don’t really know enough about the early greats, like Braddock, Louis, and Marciano, to comment. I understand Marciano’s style was similar to Frazier’s, and that he was the consummate knockout artist, so who knows?
roughly 3 and a half years. only ali knows just how much he lost. there are very few, if any, examples of a professional fighter laying off for that long and coming back to have any type of a new career. boxing is called the ‘sweet science’ for good reason. besides all of the banging and bashing there are so many little things involved with reflexes, etc. ali was not given any credit for how he came back, there was still quite a bit of hate for him over his draft refusal and nothing he could do would have satisfied the political climate at that time. you had to be there to see what went down in print and TV. just unreal, and very understandable to fans and non fans alike. the Ali/Quarry comeback fight was really something to see and only another pro fighter or trainer was able to see the difference from the pre layoff Ali or the comeback Ali or so it is said. he was a very diff. fighter after his return. go to youtube and view the pre and post ali fights. they never gave Ali the credit I felt he deserved for that 3 and a half year comeback when sometimes 6 months off spells the difference in a boxer. I do not know if Ali could have beaten the older champs or not, hell, any 220 pound pro fighter could/can take out another at anytime. fun to think about it for us fans tho!
My days as a fight fan go back to the wars between Fullmer, Robinson, and Basillio as well as Carter vs Ghiardelli. I saw Patterson devastate Johansen with that leaping left hook. I can’t remember any heavyweights of that era who could be called great but the light heavyweight division was full of them: Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and Harold Johnson are three that I can still name. Despite fighting for the heavyweight crown Charles and Moore were really light heavies. Having said all that, I believe Ali is the best heavyweight champion of all time. I also don’t think Smokin Joe could have touched him in his prime. I do know that Ali in his prime was by far the best heavyweight I ever saw.
It is my view that Ali has taken all the good sportsmanship out of sport. His shtick of self-promotion, showboating before, during and after his matches and the press’s fawning all over that sent out a very clear signal to the young, future athlete. Be “the Greatest,” have a memorable line or two to say when the mike is thrust your way, have some little “act” during the competition that sears (”sears”) “you” into the memories of young people and you’ll be the next ONE.
I always thought he was a great boxer and I always hoped his opponents would be the one to shut him up.
I miss athletes like Mark Bavarro.
my fight following era started as Cassius Clay really began his run to the title, about ‘62 or so, then on from that point. I was a young guy then but he captivated me. your last 3 sentences says it all. Clay/Ali had the greatest combination of height and weight physique, foot speed, conditioning, hand speed, offensive boxing ability, defensive boxing ability, taking and recovering from a punch ability, brains, the ability to improvise in a fight, guts and heart (and probably a few more that escapes me at the moment) that God ever put into a human being. Clay/Ali fought MONSTERS. most of his opponents could have fought in any era and he took ‘em all on. If one goes back thru past champion’s records and compares how many times they went to the post against the caliber of men Ali fought.... well it isn’t even close in my book. Shavers, Lyle, Foreman, Liston, Norton, Frazier, Chuvalo to name a few, huge, terribly strong and powerful young men who were able KO anyone then, or from any era, who ever laced up a pair of everlasts. even his ‘lower’ opponents still were all well conditioned athletes,(except for maybe Buster Mathis, but could that man hit!). I followed his entire career very close, he was/is my favorite all time athlete. I still miss the pre fight anticipation and excitement of his fights. there will never be another like him I think it is VERY safe to say!
“I believe Ali is the best heavyweight champion of all time. I also don’t think Smokin Joe could have touched him in his prime. I do know that Ali in his prime was by far the best heavyweight I ever saw.”
I also believe Ali was the greatest, but not by as wide a margin as people commonly maintain. Ali in his prime was a marvel. The speed, the agility, the doges, the dancing. Watch the Williams match from ‘66, or whenever it was, and it looks like he was unbeatable.
Then again, when Tyson was on he looked unbeatable, too. It was a different matter once he faced guys on his level. Same with Ali. Once he got to Frazier, Foreman, and Norton, he proved how tough and smart he was, but he couldn’t dance circles around them.
I think the main contributor to the “Ali at his peak” legend is the hiatus. We’ll never know what those years robbed him of. The gap between him and the competition from 65 to 67 was so enormous, then he just disappears. However, the best he faced before the forced retirement were Patterson and Liston. Patterson was over the hill. Liston, well, who knows what the hell was going on in those fights? I have a feeling that had Ali met the ‘71 Frazier in ‘67, they still would have been perfect opponents.
“I always thought he was a great boxer and I always hoped his opponents would be the one to shut him up.”
That was the key to Ali’s success. A true “love him or hate him” character. He would have been a great professional wrestler.
“If one goes back thru past champion’s records and compares how many times they went to the post against the caliber of men Ali fought.... well it isn’t even close in my book. Shavers, Lyle, Foreman, Liston, Norton, Frazier, Chuvalo to name a few, huge, terribly strong and powerful young men who were able KO anyone then, or from any era, who ever laced up a pair of everlasts.”
Not to take anything away from Ali, but there’s an element of luck involved. Ali was lucky he was born into the Golden Age of boxing. If he had been born a decade earlier or later, we would never have seen his greatest fights. On the flip side, they say Marciano was lucky, since his biggest competitors, like Joe Louis, were past their expiration date.
That’s one reason people like Larry Homes get the shaft, in my opinion. He fought an elderly Ali and an infant Tyson. In between, he ruled over a field of nobodies. Then again, Holmes was lucky, because the 80s probably should have been Foreman’s heyday, had he not dropped out.
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