Shelby discusses stimulus bill, other issues (Questions Obama's Citizenship* (Uh-Oh))

The Cullman Times ^ | February 21, 2009 | Patrick McCreless

[Cyropaedia]

"Another local resident asked Shelby if there was any truth to a rumor that appeared during the presidential campaign concerning Obama’s U.S. citizenship, or lack thereof.

“Well his father was Kenyan and they said he was born in Hawaii, but I haven’t seen any birth certificate,” Shelby said. “You have to be born in America to be president.”

[Michael Michael]

Get off it. You don’t have the same rights in the military as you do in the civilian world. You operate under the jurisdiction of the UCMJ.

That does not change the fact that the military does not operate outside the Constitution of the United States, and you make it clear that you have never actually read or even understand the Constitution of the United States. No other person could make such an absurd argument that the United States military operates outside the Constitution.

Any soldier that tried to argue to his superiors about his “rights” under the Constitution would be assigned to KP.

Look, instead of just uttering the word "Constitution," why don't you take a little break from here and sit down and actually read it for once in your life. Then you might come to understand how our country and its military works and just how absurd your argument here is.

If you get stuck on some of the bigger words, just let me know and I'll be happy to help you out.

[Michael Michael]

Constitutional scholars on the Right and Left agree that he was born a U.S. citizen. Both Ted Olson (former Solicitor General) and Harvard’s Lawrence Tribe have studied the case and agree at the very least that he is a citizen by birth.

Are you sure you want to cite Olson and Tribe here? Because the arguments they use in support of McCain being a "natural born citizen" also hold that if Obama were born in Hawaii, he would also be a "natural born citizen" regardless of the citizenship of his parents.

So what do you want to do here? Do you want to concede that if Obama was born in Hawaii that he's a natural born citizen, or would you care to question Olson's and Tribe's arguments with regard to McCain? Can't have it both ways.

[Kansas58]

Obama AND Fact Check are both funded by the Annenberg Foundation.
Fact Check is a liberal front group

[Polarik]

Obama AND Fact Check are both funded by the Annenberg Foundation.

And George Soros funds Annenberg.

[Michael Michael]

Obama AND Fact Check are both funded by the Annenberg Foundation.

And George Soros funds Annenberg.

None of which has anything inherently to do with Obama's Certification of Live Birth or the scanned images and photographs of it.

What is your political ideology and what are your political affiliations? You're a regular poster on a decidedly conservative forum. Why shouldn't your reports on the COLB be similarly dismissed due to your political leanings?

[Just A Nobody]

And if Obama was born in Hawaii then so is he.

That is a mighty big if and begs for PROOF!

[Cyropaedia]

No other person could make such an absurd argument that the United States military operates outside the Constitution.

Oh really...? Ask any person who has actually served in the Army or Marines if "freedom of speech" actually operates in the same way that it does for civilians in civilian life.

No other person could make such an absurd argument that the United States military operates outside the Constitution.

Well, then just for starters, we need to sue the military for operating under its own separate set of legal codes as well as its own collection of military tribunals and courts. They have juries that are comprised exclusively of military personnel or officers. These groups serve as both "judge and jury" and render verdicts. This obviously constitutes a violation of the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

[Cyropaedia]

My personal belief is that if you are actually born on U.S. soil, and one biological parent is a U.S. citizen, and the other parent, their spouse, is a legal immigrant, then you are a "natural born" U.S. citizen. I happen to fall into that particular category.

My contention is that Obama is obligated to show us a certified copy of his long form birth certificate. Period.

[Michael Michael]

Oh really...? Ask any person who has actually served in the Army or Marines if "freedom of speech" actually operates in the same way that it does for civilians in civilian life.

No. You need to stop making excuses for your own laziness and take the time to actually read the Constitution. It's not like it's some 300 page novel or anything. Even if you have to use your finger, you can probably get through it in an hour or so.

Well, then just for starters, we need to sue the military for operating under its own separate set of legal codes as well as its own collection of military tribunals and courts.

There's no reason to sue anyone as the military does not operate outside of the Constitution in any way, shape or form. Again, READ THE DAMNED THING! Educate yourself. It's our founding document for crying out loud!

[Michael Michael]

My personal belief is that if you are actually born on U.S. soil, and one biological parent is a U.S. citizen, and the other parent, their spouse, is a legal immigrant, then you are a "natural born" U.S. citizen. I happen to fall into that particular category.

Good luck trying to convince those who insist that both parents need to be citizens before you can be a "natural born citizen."

My contention is that Obama is obligated to show us a certified copy of his long form birth certificate.

Obligated by what, specifically? There's absolutely nothing in the Constitution or any federal statute obligating him to do any such thing. So where exactly does your contention come from?

[Cyropaedia]

No. You need to stop making excuses for your own laziness and take the time to actually read the Constitution. It's not like it's some 300 page novel or anything. Even if you have to use your finger, you can probably get through it in an hour or so.

Avoiding the issue once again.

My best friend served in the 82nd Airborne Division. you could get court-martialed and placed behind bars for all sorts of transgressions that you wouldn't penalized for in the civilian world.

There's no reason to sue anyone as the military does not operate outside of the Constitution in any way, shape or form. Again, READ THE DAMNED THING! Educate yourself. It's our founding document for crying out loud!

Does the separate legal code of the UCMJ with its separate system of courts constitute a violation of the equal protection clause of 14th Amendment...? You have a panel of military officers serving as judge and jury and sentencing soldiers to prison for (non-military) crimes committed against civilians outside of military installations. Does this constitute proper "justice" under the Constitution...?

[Cyropaedia]

Obligated by what, specifically? There's absolutely nothing in the Constitution or any federal statute obligating him to do any such thing. So where exactly does your contention come from?

He is obligated to provide all the necessary (legal) documents validating his *proper* status because he is the only one allowed to acquire them from the state agencies. We can't do that for him.

[Michael Michael]

Avoiding the issue once again.

No, you're the one avoiding the issue once again. That being your blatant ignorance of this country's Constitution.

My best friend served in the 82nd Airborne Division. you could get court-martialed and placed behind bars for all sorts of transgressions that you wouldn't penalized for in the civilian world.

I don't care about your best friend. What I care about are people, and especially Americans--which I assume you are--who yammer on and on about the Constitution, but who demonstrate that they've never actually READ the document by making such incredibly ignorant claims such as yours that the military operates OUTSIDE the Constitution.

Any American should be deeply embarrassed by such ignorance of our founding document, and take steps to correct such ignorance. But instead, you just keep saying the same ignorant things over and over again.

And I think it's especially worth noting that at no time during this discussion have you once tried to defend yourself by saying you HAVE read the Constitution.

So in spite of my just assuming that you haven't, you really haven't actually read it, I mean the whole thing, have you?

[Cyropaedia]

No, you're the one avoiding the issue once again. That being your blatant ignorance of this country's Constitution.

Nope, you still haven't answered my specific questions.

So in spite of my just assuming that you haven't, you really haven't actually read it, I mean the whole thing, have you?

Again, avoiding the issue.

There are two separate jurisdictions: one for civilians and another, under the UCMJ, for the military. Different rules and procedures for each.

[Non-Sequitur]

That is a mighty big if and begs for PROOF!

Both ways. But Obama doesn't appear willing to humor you, so if you have evidence he wasn't born in Hawaii then trot it out.

[Just A Nobody]

Back at ya...

so if you have evidence he wasn't born in Hawaii KENYA then trot it out.

There is far more evidence that he was born in Kenya then in Hawaii.

At least two of his relatives in Kenya claim to have been present at his birth in Mombasa, Kenya.

The Kenyan Ambassador, H.E. Peter Ogego had this to say:
Fellhauer: “One more quick question, President-elect Obama’s birthplace over in Kenya, is that going to be a national spot to go visit, where he was born?”
Ogego: “It’s already an attraction. His paternal grandmother is still alive.”
Fellhauer: “His birthplace, they’ll put up a marker there?” Ogego: “It would depend on the government. It’s already well known.”

At least you are consistent in your undying defense of the:

[Non-Sequitur]

At least two of his relatives in Kenya claim to have been present at his birth in Mombasa, Kenya.

So I keep hearing. But nobody seems to be able to come up with anything to support it. The recordings have been vague, the Berg affidavit which supposedly supports it also claims to have been conducted in a language that the woman didn't speak. What have you got?

The Kenyan Ambassador, H.E. Peter Ogego had this to say...

Nowhere does he say Obama was born there. And both the Ambassador and the Kenyan government have denied he even meant to imply it.

At least you are consistent in your undying defense of the...

I prefer to think of it as undying opposition to idiocy.

[Just A Nobody]

PATHETIC!

[Michael Michael]

There are two separate jurisdictions: one for civilians and another, under the UCMJ, for the military. Different rules and procedures for each.

And they all operate WITHIN the Constitution. Which you should know if you ever took the time to read it. But you haven't, nor does it seem that you ever will.

[Cyropaedia]

You still don't get it.

McCain's father's active duty status with the U.S. military defined his jurisdiction. Therefore McCain was a citizen by birth and possibly even a "natural born" citizen as well. Military officers remain subject to the full jurisdiction of the U.S. military and under the direct control of the U.S. chain of command regardless of where they go.