Another Octuplet Mom in LA?

MyFox National ^ | , 14 Feb 2009 | MIKE BRODY

[Tax-chick]

It's astonishing how many people have been told by doctors that they could "never have children," and yet they do. This should cause us all to regard doctors' opinions on a variety of points, such as life expectancy, as something less than God's Oracles.

It's the whack jobs like this doctor and Octopussy mom that ruin it for those who are sincere and want to have a family.

Who can say that Ms. Suleman isn't "sincere" in her desire to "have a family"? Who can rule that her version of "a family" is less legitimate than that of any other single woman who seeks artificial reproductive technology? I would be calling this "sarcasm," but it's the basic premise of an unregulated reproduction industry. The desires of the customer are the only consideration - not common sense, not public finance, not the interests of the children.

I'm sorry about your endometriosis. I have friends who suffer from that condition, and I understand it's very unpleasant.

[rintense]

Its a delicate line, that's for sure. The octomom, though, clearly has emotional issues, as is evident by statements about her childhood, the want to get pregnant at 17, etc. That's why this Dr. should lose his license since almost all IVF clinics require a psych consult before being approved for IVF.

Yes, God does work in wonderful ways and has blessed many with children after being told it was impossible. But, many other couples have become parents through IVF when all other hope was lost. That, too, is a blessing. Just ask those families. I suspect there are quite a few families here on FR who have children via IVF. And I bet most are being silent because of the comments being made by some.

[Tax-chick]

I suspect there are quite a few families here on FR who have children via IVF.

I know there are some. And I know that many take any discussion of the morality or social effect of IVF as a personal attack. That's sad, but it should not make discussion of a major topic that, like it or not, affects us all, off-limits.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"I don't think IVF is an evil thing. It helps so many couples become parents."

One must distinguish between ends and means.

• The "end" of becoming parents is a good one.
• The "means" of genuine therapeutic intervention ---actually correcting the underlying cause of infertility, so that the couple could procreate via sexual intercourse--- would be a good one.
• In contrast, the "means" of IVF doesn’t cure your underlying problem and enable you to achieve pregnancy through intercourse. It abandons the goal of natural procreation through sexual union and substitutes, instead, a laboratory procedure. That's what makes it intrinsically wrong.

On a hopeful note, there ARE legitimate therapeutic advances which can often make natural procreation possible for previously-infertile couples. To manetion just a few:

• Assessment of uterine and tubal structural competence by imaging techniques (e.g., ultrasound, hysterosalpingogram, etc.).

• Appropriate medical treatment of ovulatory dysfunction.

• Appropriate (usually surgical) correction of mechanical blockage of fallopian tubes.

• If tubal function cannot be restored, transfer of an ovum past the point of blockage into the uterine cavity -- "low tubal ovum transfer" (LTOT) preceded by normal intercourse during the fertile phase. In England, this procedure is called NEST (normal egg sonographic transfer).

• Possibly, Gamete intra-fallopian transfer (GIFT)

Any procedure which heals the underlyng causes of disability, and assists marital intercourse in reaching its procreative potential, is morally good, and usually much preferred by the couples themselves.

[rintense]

You line of reasoning pretty much negates all medical advances that produce an outcome ‘inconsistent’ with your view of God’s plan, including those that save lives.

[rintense]

That should be ‘your’. Sorry, not enough coffee yet.

[rintense]

Oh I agree. Imagine how I feel when freepers tell me I should just keep popping out babies so my endo doesn’t get bad. Or that BCPs are evil and because I take them to control my endo, I’m burning in hell. Its that rhetoric, in my opinion, that ruins all rational discussion. And yes, endo does suck. :( Ironically, after my recent surgery, my previously blocked tubes are now clear. God is great! Does help having a good doctor too.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"You line of reasoning pretty much negates all medical advances that produce an outcome ‘inconsistent’ with your view of God’s plan, including those that save lives."

I'd love to discuss this, but it's hard to either clarify it or dispute it unless you get more specific. If you will, please give some examples, and then we can fruitfully resume the discussion.

[rintense]

FYI, GIFT transfers increase the likelihood of ectopic pregnancies and are only recommended for women who have no underlying factors of infertility.

Your list... when all those factors don't work, and a couple still wants to have a child, you're saying IVf is wrong? So, by that reasoning, if someone who has heart disease does a complete lifestyle change and yet is told they need a heart transplant, they should rejected?

[rintense]

Did in reply above.

[fella]

Is this one a muslim too?

[ErnBatavia]

"There was an old lady who lived in a shoe.
She had so many kids her uterus fell out! Bada Bing!"

[Mrs. Don-o]

I'm interested in what you wrote about GIFT. I'm just learning more about it. Could you give me a link or a reference on that?

"So, by that reasoning, if someone who has heart disease does a complete lifestyle change and yet is told they need a heart transplant, they should rejected?"

No, not at all. I don't know of any moral objection to a heart transplant, assuming that the proper ethical safeguards are in place with respect to the donor.

In the same way, I wouldn't have any objection to a uterine transplant, assuming it were possible and needed to restore successful natural procreation via marital intercourse.

[rintense]

Here's just a sample of some results.

Risk factors

My first hand experience with GIFT and risks comes from an endo support group/forum where women who are looking for help conceiving have been told because of their condition, it is not recommended. Many women who have PCOS are also warned against GIFT. Then again, like any treatment, I'm sure other doctors have no issue with the risks. I know after my initial diagnosis at age 33, my doctor gave me a harsh but real idea of how difficult it would be to conceive naturally. He told me all the options, including GIFT, but said it is not recommended for women with endo.

Becoming knowledgeable about my own reproductive issues has been a huge revelation to many things: procedures, options, etc. The one very surprising thing is that at least half of my girlfriends have had or are having fertility issues. To me, that's what needs to be researched... why are women becoming increasingly infertile?

[Rastapopoulos]

MICHAEL M KAMRAVA, MD is an American medical school graduate, and has managed to have a CA medical license since 1979 without any disciplinary action. Now, 30 years into his medical practice he is implanting Octuplet factories? Bizarre.

Medical Board of California

Physician Information

Licensee Name:	MICHAEL M KAMRAVA, MD
License Type:	PHYSICIAN AND SURGEON
License Number:	G41227
License Status:
Public Record Actions:
Original Issue Date:	NOVEMBER 26, 1979
Expiration Date:	NOVEMBER 30, 2009
Address:	250 N ROBERTSON BLVD STE 403
	BEVERLY HILLS, CA 90211
County:	LOS ANGELES

Public DisclosureAdministrative/Disciplinary Action
No information available.

Administrative Action Taken by Other State or Federal Government
No information available from this agency.

Felony Conviction
No information available from this agency.

Misdemeanor Conviction
No information available from this agency.

Administrative Citation Issued
No information available.

Hospital Disciplinary Action
No information available from this agency.

Malpractice Judgment
No information available from this agency.

Arbitration Award
No information available from this agency.

Malpractice Settlements
No information available from this agency.

Education

Medical School:	CASE WESTERN RESERVE UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE
Year Graduated:	1976

This information is updated Monday through Friday - Last updated: FEB-13-2009

[Mrs. Don-o]

Thank you so much for the link. I'll look into it a bit later (I'm out this afternoon.)

The question you raise about the dramatic increase in fertility problems is a very interesting one. My own guesses (but you would probably have better guesses than I do) would be (1)More women delaying first childbirth until their 30's or 40's, when the physiologically optimum time for first childbirth would be in the late teens-early 20's; and (2) Damage to reproductive processes from previous contraceptive choices, abortion, or impact of STD's.

There are probably also environmental factors affecting both males and females, such as hormonal disruption due to xenoestrogenic chemicals and so forth. This is known to cause much lower sperm counts in males, probably disrupts female hormonal balance as well.

I suspect that I myself had a disrupted balance (too-high estrogen, not-high-enough progesterone) which factored into two heartbreaking early miscarriages.

After my first-and-only successful childbirth followed by the miscarriages, my husband and I -- being by then in our early 40's ---ended up adding to our family via adoption.

What are your thoughts on this?

[rintense]

Oh I agree with all you've said. I think its quite alarming, actually. Of course, reading 'Children of Men' didn't help. What I find more interesting is that western civilization seems to be the one area where fertility rates are declining.

As for me, in hindsight, I wish I had been more focused on family and marriage in my early 20s. But, hindsight is 20-20. Of course, I hope to marry and have children still. The problem with my personal fertility issues is that my endo was so bad (severe for over 20 years at time of diagnosis, which means it started when I was 13), my age would not have made a difference- conception would still have been extremely difficult.

[Tax-chick]

I just don’t see the decline-in-fertility thing, personally.

[JudyinCanada]

Yes - that’s what it is. Outbreeding us.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2186238/posts

Post #16.

[rintense]

I would also argue that social-economic status also is a factor in infertility. But that’s a theory of mine.