Posted on 02/05/2009 8:10:48 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
They also have no other recourse but to try to denigrade ID and Creationism by falsely accusing it of being an excersize in apologetics- funny how those claiming to be Go’ds own have to resort to lies and misrepresentations in order to stifle the truth. ‘Clergy’ after all have spoen (Apparently they too are afraid of the truth- As you say- selling hteir soul for the sake of popularity.
Another favorite tactic of those who wish to silence ID science is to attack not hte actual science itself, but those within the scientific practice by lamely attempting to use God’s own word agaisnt us.
As AlamoGirl once said- when they’ve got no real ammo- they throw spitwads. I see you’ve been visitted by another DC spitwad thrower-
As opposed to compromising God's world, so that it fits your interpretation of His word.
“Excellent, excellent reply, brother!”
Are you talking about post number 10? I can’t take credit for it, I copy and pasted it from the article you sent.
I do find it strange and frustrating that people would believe some parts of the Bible and God’s dealings with man but not believe the foundation for His dealings with us (the creation).
Everything hinges on whether or not the Bible can be trusted as accurate. But not only that, it all hinges on whether or not it can be understood: This being in response to those who’ll say, “It’s accurate, but your interpretation is wrong.” That’s essentially saying I have no ability to interpret scripture or must do so through the filter of worldly knowledge.
So it it’s not accurate or to be comprehended, it’s has no authority. Why should I believe coveting my neighbor’s stuff is a sin? Why should I consider it a good idea to pray without ceasing? What armour of God will help me stand against the Devil’s wiles? And worst yet, why should I believe my sin has separated me from a Holy God?
[[As opposed to compromising God’s world, so that it fits your interpretation of His word.]]
As mentioned before 2.6 billion TRUE Christians interprete God’s word just fine with only minor irrelevent differences- Again, it seems only hte minority of people calling htemselves ‘Christians’ who want the word to fit hteir liberal ideology have a problem with ‘interpretations’, and seem to want to justify their liberal interpretations by claiming God’s word is ‘open to interpretation’ in any manner one wishes
The response here is to dismiss everything out of hand, primarily, I suspect, because there is no other option. Popes are Catholic; they doesn't count because some posters are not Catholic. I explicitly stated that wasn't the point, but that didn't matter. (The point was that people who are serious about religion -- a Pope, for instance -- can accept the Theory of Evolution as science). The thousands of ministers in question don't count because they aren't real Christians.
Has anyone here ever heard of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy?
The response has been telling. Utterly without foundation, a number is cited. Is there a link to a source for this number? Why ... no. The number is entirely imaginary! It's cited as part of a claim that every Christian on the planet stands in opposition to the Theory of Evolution. There is no evidence for this, in fact, it is manifest nonsense.
This is why I addressed my post to the lurkers. I am unconcerned with those who post manifest nonsense.
So did God move, hover, or brood over the surface of the waters in Genesis 1:2?
BTW, good trick there being 2.6 billion TRUE Christians when there are less than 2 billion in the world... and according to you some of them only "call" themselves Christians.
Doesn't they? Sheesh!
Your claim is taken from old figures in 2005-2006, and yes, I made a mistake- there are around 700 million TRUE bible beleiving born again Christians as compared to the 11,000 ‘Christians’ that signed that petition posted previously, and contrary to the claim that ‘most Christians dissagree on interpretations of hte bible’ while some have dissagreements over MINOR theological issues, these are irrelevent to the major premisses of God’s word of which 2.1 billion plus (Perhaps evenm ore by now- that figure was taken from old consensus) agree on. So htose tryign to tear down the bible and TRUE Christians by claiming a minority few ‘can’t agree’. As well 700+ million TRUE CHristians are in majority agreement on God’s word with again, perhaps a few scant theological issues not being 100% agreed on- Big deal?
What you and others are decetfully tryign to do is intimate that since everyone doesn’t agree 100% on every single issue- regardless of how minor, then the whole book therefore can’t be trusted. Really? Since scholars can’t agree whether Lincoln meant one hting or another in some of his speeches, then all biographies about lincoln then can’t be trusted? or are open to any interpretations that peopel wish to claim? Shall I then think that since htere arem inor dissagreements about certain issues in bibliographies and biographies abotu lincoln, then I can say he was 4 feet tall, had 3 arms instead of two, and spoke spanish instead of english? Since htere isn’t perfect 100% agreement on how lincoln thouhgt on certain issues, and since we were not there to hear him explain every minor htought personally, then is the interpretation as open and free as you and others are claiming hte bible now is because Christians dissagre on minor points?
You quesiton has NO relevence to the infallibility and trustworthiness of God’s word- Whether God hovered, moved or brooded over hte waters makes no difference to the reliability of His word when conciderign His creation- IF you choose NOT to beleive God created- then fine- whatever- but let’s not pretend that pointing out minor irrelevent differences means the whole of His book can be interpreted any way we wish- That’s a silly argument to make- As silly as me now saying I think, because htere isn’t 100% agreement on minor issues concernign lincoln, that lincoln was not really a man, but a kangaroo with hte ability to speak.
It doesn’t matter what some ‘religious people’ who are willing to sell their soul for hte sake of combability with God deniers and others who don’t htink God created life, think- Citing such unscientific opinions that ignore the serious scientific and natural and biological and mathematical impossibiliets in no way invalidates the idea that belief in God hte creator, and macroevolutionary ‘science’ which has no scientific evidence to support unfortunately, and hwich must therefore rely on fallible man’s OPINIONS and ASSUMPTIONS, and thus equates with dogmatism and religious beleief itself- a man made religion at htat, are incompatible- But let’s sit back and watch those that think the two are compatible try to finagle their way in with nothign but science ignoring ‘evidnece’ and by citing those who have abandoned God and science and who think, for hte sake of man’s approval and praise, that hte two are compatible- Should be quite a show
Woops- meant ‘Census’ not ‘consensus’ As We all know ‘consensus’ doesn’t automatically mean that the majority are correct, as proven out by those who bleive macroevolution despite a lack of evidence, nd htose who beleieve ;man-caused’ global warming despite hte now overwhelming evidence man is NOT to blame- yet hte claimed ‘consensus’ are still advocating man is to blame- so as we see- appealing to the ‘consensus’ and citing numbers means nothing if htose hwo make up that ‘consensus’ beleive in soemthign that is scientifically false.
Such is how I read the Bible. Such is how the original Hebrew stands.
And there's the problem Most of us don't know what the Bible says, because we don't know enough Hebrew and Greek to understand the original. Language does not translate as a one-to-one. Translations are by their very nature erroneous -- and that's just a matter of language. Read in people's biases, conscious and unconscious and that's just so much more error that goes into it.
It doesn't mean we can interpret the Bible any way we wish. It means that we do not know enough to be sure of our interpretation. However, science says evolution occurred; the Bible can be interpreted, in the original language, as in line with science. That's pretty good reason to accept evolution.
Furthermore, the 11,000 Christians that signed the petition are hardly the only 11,000 Christians who accept evolution. In fact, those who signed were all clergy. Certainly there are more clergy and laity who both believe in God and accept evolution.
Then there are the Jews. The 11th century Jewish sage, Rashi, whose interpretation of the Bible is probably the cornerstone of modern Judaism: Writing on Genesis 1:1, Rashi wrote:"It is written: “and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the water,” and Scripture did not yet disclose when the creation of water took place!" Therefore, Rashi concludes, the order of creation in the Bible is not to be taken literally. Not all Jews believe in evolution; not all Jews agree with Rashi. But I figure you can toss in at least several million, bible-believing Jews (who, like Rashi, read God's original Word) who accept evolution.
But let's set that aside. There are millions of people who say they believe in the God's Bible and accept evolution. Many of them have spent a whole lot of time studying it, more than you and I either will. They pray to God. They think about the questions. They believe. They accept.
And then you and others here have the unmitigated audacity to come along and call them, not just wrong, but athiests and satanists and not true Christians.
Who the Hell are you to look into their hearts and know who they believe and they accept? Who the Hell are you to pass judgment on them, when it is Christ who shall do that?
Believe or don't believe. Accept or don't accept. I don't give a damn. But how dare you and the others here claim that you are "TRUE CHristian" and others are not. How dare you believe anything with absolute certainty, except that God rules and the Bible is His Word?
We see through a glass darkly. Perhaps it would be best that we not throw stones of judgment, lest our dark glass shatter and we be burned by brilliance, before our time.
Let us examine what's been going on here.
[T]here are around 700 million TRUE bible beleiving[sic] born again Christians as compared to the 11,000 ‘Christians’ that signed that petition posted previously …
One of the hallmarks of intelligent discussion is the ability to understand and repeat or rephrase the opponent’s position without distorting it. This doesn’t mean agreement, of course, it means that one has taken the time and trouble to understand the other person’s argument. Only then can an effective counter-argument be formed.
Unfortunately, the above quote is either an evasion or a failure to understand. Let us accept without question the 700 million number. What’s interesting about this is that if we decide to play the numbers game, Catholics outnumber “TRUE bible believing[sic] born again Christians.” (Estimates vary, of course, but there's general agreement that there are over a billion Catholics). Catholics pay some attention to what the Pope has to say, and John Paul II said something on the subject of the Theory of Evolution: he said it doesn’t have to conflict with Catholic teaching.
My point, all along, has been that people who are serious about their religion, people like the Pope or eleven thousand Protestant ministers, can accept the science behind the Theory of Evolution. This point has been studiously ignored. We’re told that the only ones who have it right are those 700 million “TRUE bible believing[sic] born again Christians.” How does one know this? It would appear to be a matter of church doctrine. But whose church has the right doctrine? We’re told here that it’s the various churches of the 700 million. But that can be neither proved nor supported. It’s a matter of belief. And beliefs differ, even among those who take their religion seriously.
It’s somewhat amusing see how doctrinal differences important enough to start a new church have been waved away in the name of assembling a big enough number. Will all Christians be getting back together again in the same denomination any time soon? Doubtful. But notice the sleight-of-hand in comparing 700 million to eleven thousand. In the quote above (from this very thread), eleven thousand Christian ministers morphed into “Christians,” from “Christian ministers.”
They’re Christian ministers. They’ve studied the Bible. They’ve learned the doctrines of their respective churches and the Bible itself so well those churches have ordained them in the name of God. They take their religion seriously. But because they don’t conform to the doctrines of a church they don’t even belong to, they’re sneered at.
So htose[sic] tryign[sic] to tear down the bible[sic] and TRUE Christians by claiming a minority few ‘can’t agree’.
This is begging the question. It assumes that anyone and everyone who accepts the Theory of Evolution is trying (or “tryign”), to tear down the Bible. That this is not the case should be clear to anyone paying attention.
It also displays the unfortunate tendency of some people to confuse their own opinions with God's.
What you and others are decetfully[sic] tryign[sic] to do is intimate that since everyone doesn’t agree 100% on every single issue- regardless of how minor, then the whole book therefore can’t be trusted.
No. Not at all. That’s a grotesque and unwarranted distortion. What isn’t trusted is an individual’s interpretation of his/her religion’s interpretation of the Bible and that person’s zeal in attempting to force those interpretations on others.
I’ve not bothered copying the silly argument about Lincoln. Its premise equates a specious disagreement about Lincoln with Biblical interpretation. But it’s interesting that doctrinal arguments so heated as to cause churches to fracture are now characterized as “Christians dissagre[sic] on minor points.” If the points were that minor, (or, as characterized below, “irrelevant”[sic]), why was a whole new church necessary?
This was directed at another poster, but it has relevance here:
You[sic] quesiton[sic] has NO relevence[sic] to the infallibility and trustworthiness of God’s word- Whether God hovered, moved or brooded over hte waters makes no difference to the reliability of His word when conciderign[sic] His creation- IF you choose NOT to beleive[sic] God created- then fine- whatever- but let’s not pretend that pointing out minor irrelevent[sic] differences means the whole of His book can be interpreted any way we wish-
So God’s word is infallible, but the words themselves make no difference. This is quite the conundrum ... but very convenient for someone who can't be bothered framing an argument based on the actual words. Then we're treated to the assumption that another poster who has obviously studied the Bible, even going so far as to attempt to understand the words in their original language so as to better grasp their exact meaning, has chosen not to believe the Bible at all … because the Bible scholar won’t accept another poster’s interpretation!
It doesn’t matter what some ‘religious people’ who are willing to sell their soul for hte[sic] sake of combability[sic] with God deniers and others who don’t htink[sic] God created life, think-
Begging the question again, this time that those religious individuals who understand the Theory of Evolution have sold their souls. Is there evidence of this – receipts, perhaps?
Citing such unscientific opinions that ignore the serious scientific and natural and biological and mathematical impossibiliets[sic] in no way invalidates the idea that belief in God hte[sic] creator, and macroevolutionary ‘science’ which has no scientific evidence to support unfortunately, and hwich[sic] must therefore rely on fallible man’s OPINIONS and ASSUMPTIONS, and thus equates with dogmatism and religious beleief[sic] itself- a man made religion at htat[sic], are incompatible-
More question begging here, this time that any research or evidence that supports the Theory of Evolution is either misinterpreted or wrong. “Mathematical impossibiliets”[sic] are cited, too, as if someone somewhere can calculate the possibility of making ones number by using dice with an unknown number of faces in an unknown number of passes. The canard that belief in God is incompatible with the Theory of Evolution is again presented as though it hasn’t been thoroughly discredited right here on FR. Those eleven thousand Ministers and Pope John II have now been transformed from “go along to get along” Christians into atheists.
But let’s sit back and watch those that think the two are compatible try to finagle their way in with nothign[sic] but science ignoring ‘evidnece’[sic] and by citing those who have abandoned God and science and who think, for hte sake of man’s approval and praise, that hte[sic] two are compatible- Should be quite a show[.]
Here we have yet more question-begging and mind-reading. A less convincing piece would be hard to imagine … although I doubt we’ll have to wait long to read one.
[[Actually, I believe that the Bible says that evolution was the method that God used to create. Genesis 2:7: God formed man, like a potter forms clay]]
Would that be microevolution? Where simple genetic info gets altered? Or would that be Macroeovlution where genetic material is introduced into a species own genetic material from a higher species? Clay doesn’t have genetic material
[[Such is how I read the Bible.]]
That’s fine- just don’t expect us to ignore scinece.
[[It means that we do not know enough to be sure of our interpretation.]]
You’re free to beleive that too- just don’t expect us to swallow that reasoning.
[[But I figure you can toss in at least several million, bible-believing Jews (who, like Rashi, read God’s original Word) who accept evolution.]]
Oh good- we’re havinfg a pissing contest with numbers. Several million? Dunno not aware of any such poll
[[There are millions of people who say they believe in the God’s Bible and accept evolution. ]]
millions? Dunno- not aware of any such poll
But alas- again- consensus means squat when the consensus ignores science.
[[Many of them have spent a whole lot of time studying it, more than you and I either will.]]
Dunno- Never pesonally asked them, have you?
[[Who the Hell are you to look into their hearts and know who they believe and they accept?]]
Eeeeeeeasy thar slim. God says we will know htem by their fruit (And htose that sell their souls for the favor and approval of man’s opinion show some pretty rotton fruit.
[[But how dare you and the others here claim that you are “TRUE CHristian” and others are not.]]
By Go’ds word I declare that! That’s Who!
[[How dare you believe anything with absolute certainty,]]
A little hting called beyond reasonable doubt- That’s how “I Dare”
[[We see through a glass darkly. Perhaps it would be best that we not throw stones of judgment,]]
We sure do but ahem- God’s word actualy DOES tell us to judge the spirits and see if they be of Him or not- and He DOES tell us to judge one another. There’s MORE to that story of the adulteress story i n the bible if you ever care to look more fully into it.
By Go’ds word I declare that! That’s Who!
Taking the Lord's name in vain and bearing false witness. Wow! You managed to break two commandments in two sentences.
lol read into things much? Do you even know what taking God’s name in vain means? Carrying out God’s word is ‘bearing false witness? Really? Since when? Go away kid
I believe that the Bible says God's children have the freedom to believe whatever they choose to believe. We each and every one will someday get to have a one on one face to face accounting with our Heavenly Father. And no church or scientist are going to be at our side to give us cover.
The flesh man God formed like a potter forms clay was NOT alive until the breath of life, which means soul was breathed into his nostrils... So really doesn't make any common sense to attribute transitional species over long periods of time when the act described that made the flesh man creation living was instant.
Just as was the description that Christ partook of blood and flesh in an instant at conception.
You declaring that you know who is and who is not a true Christian? Yeah, right. Like you can look into everyone's mind and know what their relationship with God is.
You're either deluded, a liar, or an agent of the other side. Whatever you want to believe about the Bible go ahead. But learn a little humility and stop taking God's name to puff up your own ego.
I agree. I'm prepared to be wrong. Are you?
[[You declaring that you know who is and who is not a true Christian?]]
I explained it to you- no need to recap. Oh, & Did I say “Everyone” No? Then why are you lying and spouting off deluded statements by insinuating I said somethign I did NOT? Are you perhaps an ‘agent for the other side’? Then?
pssst:
Matthew 7:15: Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. 16 By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
A teaching of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount; it suggests that we are able to distinguish between false and genuine prophets by the things they do and say. In the same passage, Jesus calls false prophets wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Christians are not only commanded to judge but to judge righteously and not just by appearance. John 7:24, “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.”
Christians must use spiritual discernment in coming to conclusions on matters of right or wrong or good and evil. Judgment that judges right from wrong and good from evil is always legitimate judgment for Christians. Hebrews 5:14 states, “But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” Christians can discern both good and evil which according to the Bible is a legitimate judgment.
http://searchwarp.com/swa7061.htm
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