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To: count-your-change
"Notice how vss. 14 and 15 begin, “Let...” this or that take place and then vs. 16 says God does what He said Let take place, “He (’asah) made...”, made (’asah) not create (bara’). Look at the tense of “made”"

Problem is, there's no 'let' there. Only the word 'ma'owr' for 'lights' so your argument falls apart right away.

"The context of Gen. 1:14-18 shows while the sun and moon were in existence they did not light up the enough for either to be prominent or dominate the night or day as respects shining on the earth."

No, the context does not show that. You impose that context on it. Big difference. The context is six 24-hour days and was always understood that way until it became popular for 'man' to say differently. That's why the verses say "evening, morning, day x". As we have seen, there is no place in the Bible where evening, morning, day x" is used to refer to anything but literal 24-hour days. This is why OECers fixate on the word 'yom' and ignore the 'evening, morning' words. It's the only way they can get around the 'evening, morning' distinction.

"Who am I speaking to? You or We? Unobserved by whom? What in the world is ancient time? Revealed to to whom? Read what you're referring to, the context, for once. If I'm speaking to We, then We did say they two words were synonymous, create and made. Don't attribute We’s statement to me!"

Please remain calm. I realize that we are getting close to some paradigms that you would rather not relinquish, but please remain calm. You cannot think rationally if you are emotionally freaked-out.

'We' are those who hold to the clear truth of the Bible in holding to a literal six 24-hour creation. Are you or are you not claiming that the sun, moon and stars were created in Gen 1:1 and 'revealed' in Gen 1:14-19?

"I can't fathom what your point is here. Gen.1:1 USES bara’ create of the earth. It isn't ‘supposedly’, it does. Thus man was bara’ created AFTER Gen.1:1 and Gen. 2:7 does not use the word bara’."

I didn't say that Gen 2:7 used the word 'bara', so I can't fathom what your difficulty is. Gen 2:7 was used to show that man was fashioned from the dust of the earth even though Gen 1:27 says man was 'bara'. So if man was formed of the dust of the earth in Gen 2:7, what part of man was 'bara' in Gen 1:27?

486 posted on 02/08/2009 2:18:21 PM PST by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
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To: GourmetDan

Gen. 1:14,15:
“14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.”

But you say,

“Problem is, there’s no ‘let’ there. Only the word ‘ma’owr’ for ‘lights’ so your argument falls apart right away.”

And I know someone who won’t read a lexicon, can’t read Hebrew.

If you come up with something useful come back but otherwise.........


488 posted on 02/08/2009 5:51:03 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: GourmetDan; count-your-change; TXnMA
This is why OECers fixate on the word 'yom' and ignore the 'evening, morning' words. It's the only way they can get around the 'evening, morning' distinction.

Ah, that explains why you were the one who was so fixated on ereb and boqer! You haven't done your word studies, GourmetDan. Boqer can mean beginning and ereb can mean ending or completion

For example, look at Psalm 90:5-6, which was written by Moses, the author of Genesis. Here, Moses compares human lives to 24-hour days, beginning in the morning and fading away in the evening:

You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning [boqer] they are like grass which sprouts anew. In the morning [boqer] it flourishes and sprouts anew; Toward evening [ereb] it fades and withers away. (Psalms 90:5-6)

God was referring to humans -- we aren't born in the morning and die with the sunset. Moses was speaking metaphorically, just as he did in the creation chapter He used boqer to refer to our birth and early years and ereb to refer to our later years and death.

Look at the prophecy concerning the tribe of Benjamin

"Benjamin is a wolf that prowls. He devours his enemies in the morning, and in the evening he divides the plunder." (Genesis 49:27)
The tribe was "known for its fierceness." Boqer and ereb did not mean a literal morning and night in the prophecy -- which also happened to have been written by Moses.

Consider also Job 4:14-20 where, from the context, it is obvious that boqer and ereb do not refer to a literal morning and evening:

'Can a mortal be more righteous than God? Can a man be more pure than his Maker? If God places no trust in his servants, if he charges his angels with error, how much more those who live in houses of clay, whose foundations are in the dust, who are crushed more readily than a moth! Between dawn [boqer] and dusk [ereb]they are broken to pieces; unnoticed, they perish forever. (Job 4:14-20)

Ereb (or erev -- v and b are pronounced the same in Hebrew) can also mean "the day before." Ereb Yom Kippur means the day before Yom Kippur. My Orthodox Jewish friends use Erev Shabbat to refer to anything after noon on Friday until the evening begins. They also use it to refer to the actual hour or so before the sabbath begins. Google and you'll find the same.

When I was a toddler, we lived in an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood in San Antonio. My mother would often serve as a Shabbat Goy to the old lady next door. I had the same opportunity when the father of an Orthodox Jewish family that I've known for 33 years was dying a few years back. It's an interesting experience.

YEC isn't just a science problem -- it's a problem of Biblical interpretation. Get the interpretation right and all that we know about science falls right into place.


494 posted on 02/09/2009 6:40:26 PM PST by DallasMike
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