Posted on 12/19/2008 10:53:01 PM PST by neverdem
In a country where 300 million people live on less than a dollar a day, Amit Kumar—nicknamed “Dr. Horror” by the Indian media after his arrest last winter for heading an illicit global kidney-transplant ring—had little trouble finding homegrown organ donors. One favorite hunting ground was a strip of restaurants, shops, and hovels near an Islamic shrine, or dargah, in Mahim, a predominantly Muslim precinct of Mumbai. Devotees of the dargah, which attracts people of all faiths, donate money to restaurants to help feed the beggars who cluster there. Last June, walking past one such restaurant whose kitchen extends to the sidewalk, I saw a dozen or so men huddled within scorching distance of giant cauldrons in which meat and potatoes simmered. Expressions glazed and clothing in tatters, the men watched, motionless and silent, their patience unwavering. I felt as if I were looking at a still photo.
Kumar, who’s now on trial, has told officials that he sent his agents to offer such men anywhere from $500 to $2,500 for a kidney. Elsewhere, in the fast-growing towns of states like Haryāna and Uttar Pradesh, Kumar’s ring also went after newly arrived migrant workers seeking jobs.
Most donors were keen to trade their kidneys for cash. Some were professional blood donors, such as Mahesh, who worked at a tea stall near a century-old clock tower with a shattered dial that rises above Meerut, a city in Uttar Pradesh, near Delhi. He, in turn, told me about Shahid, a rickshaw puller who joined Kumar’s group after having made a career out of finding men who would sell their blood to nursing homes. Leveraging his knowledge of blood sellers, Shahid became one of Kumar’s most successful kidney hunters. Then there was Gyasuddin, a boyish-looking migrant worker with a shock of hair who...
(Excerpt) Read more at theatlantic.com ...
Uh, because in my example the transaction is voluntary (at least as voluntary as many other decisions regarding money, such as whether to accept a job) and in the other it would be forced and in no way in the donor's interests.
You people who miss this distinction are impossible to reason with.
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Nope, we are just pointing a fact that societies include values in their determination of their economic policies.
That is very reasonable.
I think Arguendo is trying to show how smart he is about the “economics”...but he misses the point that ALL economics a society chooses is based on our values.
That way he can jump to a conclusion without factoring in the “values” of a society. Either you are an economist just studying the actual facts and don’t make conlusions about how society SHOULD do things, or you incorporate the realities of society values.
See my post #17.
Selling ones self into slavery, of a type, one piece at a time.
You’re right that economics is just descriptive. But since you’re an authority on social values, please explain what society reasonably values more highly than preventing deaths from kidney shortages, when that would simply involve voluntary trades. If you’re going to oppose something that economics has demonstrated would have social utility on the basis of values, you should at least be able to make a strong case for these values.
Thanks for the courtesy ping in your post about me, BTW.
you are being, at the very least, disengenuous. What you proprose is much more than what we have now” voluntary trades”.
Trade for profit is only “voluntary “ if the choice is truly free and then, we wouldn’t need to ‘pay.” I am not “an authority” on social values. OUr societal values at this point do not include selling parts of our bodies. At present our societal values do not accept embryonic stem cells research, and we don’t ask senior citizens to die early so we can harvest their organs...for after all “valuing highly preventing deaths from organ shortages.”
If you want to suggest we change our values, that is another matter entirely. But be very careful of the slippery slope....after all these older and defective people are just taking up space and economic resources, aren’t they?
Except blood plasma and eggs/sperm.
But there's a large qualitative difference between deciding who in society should have their body parts harvested and letting individuals decide whether marketplace incentives are enough to induce them to make that decision on their own. It's as different as slavery versus voluntary labor: some people might have to take very unpleasant job they don't want because of their economic circumstnaces, but they're not slaves. Some people might be pushed by their economic circumstances to sell a kidney, but it's not being taken from them.
blood plasma and egg/sperm is regenrative.
I have presented my points and you continue to mix apples and oranges...unpleasant jobs and body parts are not the same. Its about the ability to have free choice here.
either you are very immature, or you are so profit motivated that values don’t enter the picture. In either case, its pointless to repeat myself over and over.
I do not agree with you that selling body parts is in my, or our society’s values. You do not agree with those values and place economic profit above these values..thats where we differ... end of subject.
Hopefully my posts have given others some thought to reflect on, that is why I have continued to respond.
And the choice of whether or not to sell a kidney is free--probably to a greater extent than the choice of whether or not to take an unpleasant (and often dangerous) job. You're the one erroneously comparing it to the involuntary harvesting of organs from the elderly or disabled.
either you are very immature, or you are so profit motivated that values don’t enter the picture.
I don't particularly care about the profits involved per se, and certainly have no interest in profiting off it personally. But I recognize that economic incentives work in a way simple social pressure (such as encouragement to be an organ donor) doesn't, and can help close a gap between supply and demand we currently experience. You're the one unable to let go of your initial gut reaction (which may be quite natural) to look at the situation rationally.
I hope my posts have helped show others the benefits of something that most people are initially opposed to, but which makes more sense when rationally considered.
copy cat.
Not me and I used to be open to the idea of selling parts. Now that you have explained the whole thing it seems like a creepy form of buying people piece-meal. Thank you.
Thank you.
It is important to share information about our values and to offer a basis for our policies and their consequences. Discussion can be education and also strengthen our resolve.
We must stand firm to our values and spiritual sense or we become less than human and become like communists or Fascists who can rationalize evil deeds. We are so blessed with scientific advancements and have a duty to use this knowledge and skill to benefit our humaness.
Is there such a thing any more? Outside my family and close friends I don't see any thing but Reptillions in person. One of the mid-west indian tribes had a word for "person" it meant human being. Based on my limited experience I don't know how many of us qualify now.
Reptillions...yeah, lots of them around.
They are sent to us to fulfill a divine mission that we help them become more human.
Good luck, walk in Peace Brother.
You too...and have a wonderful Christmas or Hannukah!
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Is it ghoulish for doctors, hospitals, insurance companies, nurses, etc. to make money off of a transplant operation but NOT the donor as in the way it's done in the U.S.?
Really? Then you are saying that when a donor gives a kidney in this country that NO ONE, not the doctors, the hospital, insurance companies, anesthetists, nurses, or any one else involved in the operation is paid for the procedure? They all do it pro bono?
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