Posted on 12/19/2008 3:08:08 PM PST by marktwain
Our world has changed so quickly in the last couple of decades, I think the mental and physical prep and constant vigil are not just a good idea, but should be a part of life.
There’s a lot of misses with that range but there’s always that one hit per five or six rounds. The point is, with a full magazine or cylinder, a person should try to take the shot at the closest range possible. If that range is a hundred yards so be it. It’s still worth the effort to try to stop a madman.
I have a friend who taught me about long range shooting with a handgun. I fine tuned his techique to include some ridiculously long ranges. My son bought me a laser range finder for Christmas last year so the ranges are authentic.
I found the easiest way to shoot at distance is to use both eyes. It’s very important to keep the sights aligned so you do that with your shooting eye. The other eye is to have a double vision so you can check your elevation.
For long guns, I seem to have a number of Savages in various calibers, that can take just about any game in North America.
Also helps if you are very strong side eye dominant (for me anyway). I usually can keep both eyes open even while using a rifle scope.
Got a nice deer that way, saw it out of my “bad” eye, and realized the head gear was bigger than the spike I was looking at with the good eye.
Please don't take this the wrong way... I'm not attacking you, okay? If your question is meant in terms of being involved in the scenario that Suarez is addressing above - you are better off staying out of it. Notice Suarez's statement about the guy that would say "If I had been there I would have taken out my Model 29..."? What he is talking about is being proficient with what you have to the point that you can make a difference in the fight of good versus evil. If you can't spend a lot of time with guns, then you need to be getting out of the line of fire and unassing the area. I'm not trying to be mean... The point I am trying to make is that a poor shooter with good intentions becomes a liability to anyone else that is there trying to take out the bad guys.
Now, if your question was meant as a general question, not related to the article: If you are not willing to master a semiautomatic, then yes, a revolver is the way to go. But that doesn't let you off the hitch for learning how to use it properly. You are morally, legally, and financially responsible for any damage caused by the rounds you fire - so you owe it to yourself and your loved ones (you do want to be around and to be able to take care of them, instead of bankrupting the family with a court case and then having to serve time) to make sure you know how to use it and when to use it.
Using a wheel gun for self defense is fine, but go with a .357 magnum for defensive purposes. You can practice with .38 specials, and then load a factory .357 Magnum load for self defense. The .38 loads allow for cheap practice, and the .357 loads will do the job when called upon. You will not notice the recoil difference regarding the .357 loads when you are under stress and are amping on adrenalin.
Regards,
Raven6
I don't know if it is still true or not, but the Secret Service used to have certain agents that carried Thompson Center Contenders (that were scoped) under the jackets. The purpose was to act as a counter-sniper. I wish I could recall for what caliber the T/C's chambered.
As a trick, I used to shoot the steel silhouette targets (small bore) at 100 yards, with my Beretta 92. We would run the 7 yard Women's Personal Protection course on the rifle range, because it was the only range with enough lanes to hold the entire class. The silhouettes would be down there at 100 yards, and I had plinked them enough times while just kicking around the range that I had actually mastered it. With the audience of many single women there, I (being single myself at the time) would only shoot about 3 of them (before I felt like I was pressing my luck toward a miss) and I would then reholster my pistol as if it was no big deal to me to shoot at that distance. I always had my choice for a date on those Saturday nights after we had conducted a class. ;-P
Regards,
Raven6
Thanks for the info. I felt that a revolver would be more reliable than a semi-auto.
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As a reply to post #1, there will be those that agree with the basic arguments given but wonder why there were directed to post #1. They were not. I’ve been reading many posts and articles on threats ahead or experienced in the past, and once in awhile I read a posted opinion that is something like:
The fellows you are resisting are 10 light years beyond you with 6.5 billion more firepower than you have. So, go home.
We do not have to see our way to success to attempt to preserve our freedoms. These have been taken away, slowly, from us for decades, and we are like the frog in the pot.
Do what you need to do to preserve your freedom. Don’t wait for permission. Don’t do it only if it is safe. Don’t be stupid about it. Being outnumbered can be measured in emotional righteousness, geography, or sheer numbers of boots on the ground. I have a problem with the motorcycle helmet law here. I’ll wear one, but it should be MY decision. I don’t want to not wear one, but I hate the law. I’m adult enough to make this call. The results of not wearing helmets is easy to ascertain. John may have a long mustache, and you may not like it, but it isn’t your business to tell him to shave. The results of oppressive laws which stifle human spirit are more difficult to measure.
>How to distinguish yourself from the bad guys when the cops finally show up?<
Unload the weapon, put the ammo in YOUR pocket and the weapon on the ground. Do NOT leave a loaded weapon for criminals to use. Then put your hands up and face the officer.
>Killing someone should be a last choice option.<
I’ve got your six.
I'm not at all concerned about the stupid Box-O-Truth ammo tests as a measure of effectiveness. Backup mags are loaded with a load from RBCD and again, I pay little attention to folks who doubt this ammo's efficacy, since I got the recommendation from two recently retired special operations senior officers. One of them has saved my life on a couple of occasions, so I'll trust his advice forever. Ccw holsters are always the Super Deluxe Tuckable from Cross Breed. A holster so comfortable in the IWB mode that I have fallen asleep in my DAD'S "Lazy Boy" chair wearing the P226. Same for the P30.
Since 911, I always have figured that I need to carry a serious gun for serious times. I am also convinced and have been since 911 that a Mumbai style attack is headed our way. Maybe multiple such attacks in fat upscale malls all over the nation. When that happens it's durn sure not going to be cops who minimize the initial attack, it's going to be your average everyday SHEEPDOG that answers the call.
This is where the essay falls short. I understand the need for good physical fitness, really I do. That's all well and good for the young guys. But some sheepdogs have been around a LONG time and although highly trained and experienced they may be suffering from the physical realities of age. My father in law is a WWII veteran of the Pacific. Retired USMC 06 (Full Colonel). Holds the Navy Cross, Silver Star and three awards of the DFC while nailing 18 air to air kills in a USMC Corsair. He's 85 and just a little bit shaky. But he can go from doddering to deadly in an eye blink.
I'm just 52. I spent my time on active duty until I hit captain of infantry (branch transferring to armor in the IRR, later). After my time on active duty I worked in law enforcement, since my degree was in Criminal Justice. I've been a competitive shooter and an NRA Instructor for 20 years. But I'm halfway into congestive heart failure and I'm rolling along headed to bariatric surgery before I get to knockin' too loud on Diabetes door. Big "D" might just answer and I don't want that. So am I going to be executing fire and maneuver 3 to 5 second rushes in such a situation? Heck no!
I'm going to make sure my wife and kid (if she's there) are safely out of the danger zone. If I feel I can make a difference, I'll find a good position of cover and a good field of vision, preferably in the path of their movement. By the way, cover is pretty easy to find almost anywhere you are, unless you're in the middle of a football field or in the middle of an empty parking lot. Otherwise it's all around you. Cover & Concealment is always handy.
Concealment is anything that hides you from view. Cover OTOH is any object that will stop or deflect small arms fire. But I'm not superman and I'm not so foolish as to think I can take out a group of Tangos solo. But I can durn sure make certain they move slower and maybe in fewer numbers. Remember, if they're shooting and without ear protection (Jihadi general issue earplugs?) they're not going to be able to hear anything but that ringing in their ears. That's an advantage for the defenders. They won't be very likely to distinguish the shots of defending sheepdogs from their own, nor determine the direction of incoming fire.
As far as their touted "training and unit cohesion" that remains to be seen. I've seen the so called AQ Urban Training vids and they're laughable. The old grandpas in my IDPA club could smoke their butts. It's easy to seem invincible while strolling and slaughtering a huge flock of sheep at random. Now I do know they acted on a plan and stayed to that at least at first: They went to the security office and seized control of the video and commo.
That shows some sophistication and organization and that means at least a mastermind among the wolves and some initial discipline in the execution. But the reports seem to indicate that in the chaos the unit cohesion fragmented and they split up to cover more ground and slaughter more sheep.
The sheepdogs on duty in the form of the Mumbai cops hid and quivered, whining about going up against AK's with old bolt actions. I'll take that action any day. The fact of the matter is those cops were beaten mentally from the opening shots. They should fire the whole group on duty that day.
That’s not bad.
Once the police show up and take over the scene, it’s important to remember that they probably won’t want any civilian assistance, even if they really need it. :-)
From a pure percentage standpoint, the revolver is more reliable... But that percentage is so very, very small that it is not worthy of mention. Semi-auto pistols that are properly maintained really don't go down any more often than a revolvers. But there are offsetting factors that must be taken into consideration. Here is an example:
Tonight, my wife didn't feel like cooking (can't blame her - she had cleaned house all day and it was immaculate... she was tired!) so I offered to run to a fast food place to pick something up. I had no intention of getting out of the truck, so my analysis was like this: Do I want to go upstairs and put on my normal carry rig (a Glock 22 in .40S&W, along with four additional mags and my tactical light) or do I want to just grab this S&W model 629 (.44 mag) and a couple of HKS 6 round speed-loaders? I had worked all day, too. I didn't want to get out of the truck, so my likelihood of having a "seek cover and shoot back" gun battle would have been pretty small - I would just drive away. So the big wheel gun made the trip down to the local Burger King.
Now... What if I had not been tired, had looked presentable? If I was going to go into an establishment to make a purchase, it would have been a different picture altogether. I'm a big guy (6'3", 210#) and can easily hide the Glock 22, the 4 extra mags, and the tactical light under just a light jacket or even a "hoody." I would have gone upstairs and "weaponed-up."
The difference between the two scenarios is the threat analysis. If you have ever been under fire, the one thing you don't want to have to worry about is still being in the battle zone and running out of ammo. In the truck, I could get away. On foot, I might have to stay in one place and fight for a while. In the truck, 18 round were what I deemed to be sufficient. On foot, I carry 76 rounds.
In my business, we use as a demonstration a "dash cam" video of a traffic stop from the New Lenox, Illinois, Police Department in which a police officer carrying a fully loaded pistol and two spare mags ran his pistol dry and was out of ammo. Nothing wrong with his marksmanship... He was putting the shots where they needed to go. He was pinned down by the bad guy, and was actually wounded twice before he was able to take cover behind his patrol car. The bad guy kept shooting, and wouldn't get out of the pick-up truck - it had a big "truck type" tool box directly behind the cab that was stopping the officer's bullets from reaching him. If other officers hadn't arrived quickly, the officer would have been out of ammo, out of luck, and out of time. The battle was ended by another officer that flanked the bad guy with a shotgun. Most folks would say 2 spare mags are enough, but I bet you that officer wouldn't - and I would also bet he carries at least 4 spares now.
It all comes down to the operating environment in which one might have to shoot... Is 18 rounds enough? It might be if the marksmanship is really there when under fire. If one can honestly tell himself that he knows he can do the job with 18 rounds in his operating environment, then 18 rounds if fine. But, what if there is a doubt? Then it is time to carry more ammo... It is for that reason that I normally carry the Glock 22 and 76 rounds of ammo that I do. I don't question my marksmanship ability, but I have seen what happens WTSHTF. Nothing works in a shooting incident like you think it will. People move - that SOB is not going to stand still while you shoot at him. People scream. Your mind is running at a million miles per hour, so time slows down. Your hearing shuts down as adrenalin dumps into your system... What you would normally consider an easy shot at the range will seem like "the shot from hell" as you try to figure out: which way do I move? are there innocent people behind the bad guy? does he have someone behind me getting ready to blow my head off? how about to either side of me - are there more bad guys there? Dammit, how long will this fight go on? The fight may only take a few seconds, but it doesn't seem like it when it is going down.
All of this stuff makes those 18 rounds get used up very quickly... And if the bad guy's marksmanship is equal to yours and he has a spare magazine or two for a pistol (while you have only a wheel gun) you can be in a world of $h!t. This doesn't even take into account that you are going to have to reload more often with a revolver.
So now one has to ask the questions, does the dependability factor of a revolver over a pistol outweigh my need for more firepower, more ammo, and less frequent reloading? Am I willing to master a semi-auto pistol in order to better my odds of surviving a gun fight? Am I willing to put in the time at the range to make sure I can take care of business when I have to?
This is all, of course, just my opinion... But I've been there. If you look at Suarez's article, you'll see the same philosophy there. He's been there, too.
Regards,
Raven6
Yes, I’ve been a student of Jeff Cooper’s for a very long time now. :-)
Another sheepdog here.
You and I think alike, Ex.
I don’t take iron anywhere, unfortunately; but I do have an asp with me always. The Hadjis knew we wouldn’t use deadly force (rifles) in a crowd situation, but they left the area quick when the riot sticks came out. I’m middle-aged myself, being old enough to have fathered half my platoon. I don’t do marathons, either, so I have to adjust my tactics.
If I’m out someplace and things go south, like your Mumbai scenario, first thing is, get the family away from me; they don’t go anywhere near me, because I’m about to draw attention to myself.
Since I’m not carrying anything, I’ll just use what’s handy; like theirs. I was taught to pick the weakest member of the opposition, separate him from the pack, take him down and use what he brought.
My OIF Veteran's baseball cap pretty much is an ID.
I’m a Smith and Wesson 1911 guy. Mine is featured on my FR home page.
100% spot on, buddy. I call the technique The Art of Trading Up!
If I have a .22, I can get an AK47. If I have an AK, I can get an M60. The process continues on and on.
This is a darn good article.
Not just now, it’s the world we’ve always lived in.
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