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Outgunned Mumbai police hampered by First World War weapons
The Times (UK) ^ | December 3, 2008 | Jeremy Page

Posted on 12/02/2008 9:12:13 PM PST by PotatoHeadMick

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To: yawningotter
As it always has been, and always will be, it is the moral courage of the warrior, not necessarily the weapons he has at hand, that determines the outcome in close conflict.

The Idea that one must cower behind cover while some idiot sprays auto-fire around or else be killed is nonsense, those will be out-flanked, and defeated even while cowering.

Automatic fire is random, indiscrete and actually not very likely to kill/disable a SPECIFIC target (which the police would have been in this case). A man (or woman) only need to commit their lives to fate (faith in my case) and fight. If one believes that their life is in their hands alone, they will cower, rather than trust to providence and courage.

Many certainly will die “charging the guns”, always has been that way, always will be. Many win and survive in the face of “odds” against them, we call them Heroes, living or dead.

For all of those out there that think they will only cower as some lunatic shoots their family or those they are sworn to protect, they will.

For those that know in their hearts, they will risk death to protect those in their charge, they likely will defeat the threat, even though not evenly armed or armored. They may not walk away, or even survive, but they know also that living after failing to act with fatal results to their duty would be a worse fate.

Ideally, proper weapons, proper tactics and training are desired, but in the absence of that “perfect” scenario, one still must be morally motivated to act, as action produces results, inaction produces freedom of action for the other force.

Snipers are effective from distance, behind cover or at least concealment, terribly ineffective in dynamic action environments. Remember, snipers (mil and civ) pick whom to kill at thier will, not in response to violent dynamic action. Many readers will think me odd, but those who have been there and back know the truth.

God Bless and Molon Labe.

81 posted on 12/03/2008 8:10:46 AM PST by Manly Warrior (US ARMY (Ret) "No Free Lunches for the Dogs of War")
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To: PotatoHeadMick; El Gato
Oh, and I did see one picture of an Indian NSG with a Tavor.

I didn't want to comment on the topic of the original article -- about whether an Indian railway cop with an Ishapore Enfield is 'poorly armed' compared to a jihadi with an AKM -- but I do get the point that the Indian NSG security force is deficient in capability for counter-terror operations.

I've seen lots of pics from the last week of these NSG guys firing their Hk machine pistols blindly and with one hand at some distant target. One video segment I saw appeared to show an NSG guy emptying his MP5A2 magazine wildly at a hotel wall across the street for the TV cameras.

India sure does like to show lots of pictures of their NSG training by breaking flaming boards with their hands 'karate-style', plunging their fists into piles of smoldering ashes, and jumping through hoops of flame while wearing judo gi. They seem to be very well trained in synchronized calisthenics as well.

I guess they've been surviving on a perception that they are tough as nails but with questionable counter-terror training.

82 posted on 12/03/2008 8:16:30 AM PST by The KG9 Kid
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To: The KG9 Kid; PotatoHeadMick; El Gato
Those were SIG-551s in the hands of the Indian NSG forces.

The rifle in question is the Indian produced INSAS.

83 posted on 12/03/2008 8:18:42 AM PST by Ronaldus Magnus
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To: Ronaldus Magnus

That certainly seems to be the weapon that I saw, it looked very similar to the Indonesian Pindad rifle which I understood was a version of the FNC, it seems to be a particular Indian version of that rifle.

Maybe the Indian government might consider mass producing it and issuing it to all their police and soldiers and rather more importantly training them how to use it and giving them ammunition along with it.


84 posted on 12/03/2008 8:33:03 AM PST by PotatoHeadMick
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To: oldenuff2no
...killed with a bold action rifle...

There's a typo for the ages.

85 posted on 12/03/2008 8:40:24 AM PST by gundog (When the SHTF, it will not be evenly distributed.)
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To: slnk_rules
India has the most anti gun culture you can imagine.

The Mahatma used to decry the disarming of the people. Everyone cites him as the model of non-violence, forgetting that he had little choice.

86 posted on 12/03/2008 8:47:55 AM PST by gundog (When the SHTF, it will not be evenly distributed.)
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To: ansel12
Actually, it was Rose's. One of Wal-Mart's early competitors, Rose's stores were a lot like the old small Wal-Marts or K-Marts in size and what they carried. While we did carry some modern firearms, our most popular weapons were the old surplus firearms that were still available in mass quantities back in the mid-90's.

The company ran into major financial trouble in the late-80's and early-90's and ended up being bought out by Family Dollar/Dollar General, who turned the stores into large discount centers, kind of a cross between a Dollar General and a Big Lots.

87 posted on 12/03/2008 10:43:36 AM PST by Stonewall Jackson (We failed, but in the good providence of God apparent failure often proves a blessing.-Robert E.Lee)
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To: river rat
The Indians had better wake up, smell the coffee and kick some Pakistani ass....

Not like they haven't done it mulitiple times since partition. They do have a problem with finding polticial leaders with spines. One of those with one was Indira Ghandi. One of those Ash Kickings occurred on her watch.

88 posted on 12/03/2008 11:36:19 AM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: PotatoHeadMick

The reports said that some of these cops were killed. It seems to me that someone should have had a little better survival instincts than that.


89 posted on 12/03/2008 6:33:20 PM PST by oldenuff2no (Retired AB ranger and damn proud of it!!! I served to support our constitution and our way of life.)
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To: gundog

I guess my fingers took a day off from spelling.


90 posted on 12/03/2008 6:34:37 PM PST by oldenuff2no (Retired AB ranger and damn proud of it!!! I served to support our constitution and our way of life.)
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