What on God’s green earth!?
Darkwolf: As an atheist, what in the world qualifies you to determine what a “great work of moral instruction” would be?
Here lets say this another way: There is no such thing as “morals” without God giving them to us! Do you not see how ridiculous your statement is?
Please inform us all of your qualifications as to what is moral?
There is only one source of morality - despite the millions of us who think we “KNOW” what is moral and not, but yet we often do just about anything to keep from looking to God’s word for answers to morality.
It is impossible to accept the Bible as a ‘great book of morals’ and in the same breath deny its ‘holiness’. You have no morals to refer to without God/scripture having provided them to you to begin with!
You don’t believe in the Bible’s holiness, which implies you do not believe in God, but you think morals came into being...........somehow....some way?!!!?
I just have to know how this came to be! Please explain!
Gunrunner - it is quite clear you do spend a great deal of time in scripture. You better be careful - many an atheist attempts to prove the Bible wrong and end up highly devout Christians. Praise God!
(I also suspect you were not raised as an atheist!)
But also, as I already said - it is apparent you have a ton of questions or you wouldn’t ask things like this:
“Here’s my question; what exactly is virtuous about faith? Why does the belief in something for which you have no evidence constitute a positive?”
Why do you have a need for clarity on this? I have immense faith that God is real, that heaven is real and that hell is real. One of those is not a positive. To declare you have no faith is first of all not true. But, for the sake of your argument, for one to claim no faith in God - is the same as saying there is no eternity of any value. Dead is dead....back to dust. The End. You are right, nothing positive there! That is why by default - having faith in eternity, particularly in heaven with God? How could that not be positive???? Faith placed in anything else not positive is it?
Get past yourself here. You are making all this way too complex. Humans are masterful at complicating something beautifully simple.
“1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.” I Cor 15
What more do you need to know?
It is obvious on the face of it that morals must have a basis that is not rooted in any particular religious claim. Without a basic “neutral” foundation, there is no way to determine which of the various mutually exclusive claims (e.g. “Morality requires human sacrifice”, “Morality requires the subjegation or destruction of the infidels”, “Morality requires that you love your brother as yourself”) trumps the others.
Really? I've got tons more questions.
-Are Hindus virtuous for their faith?
-Do non-Christian Buddhists burn in hell for all eternity when they die?
-Are books and gospels not included in the Bible and/or were suppressed by the Catholic church also the word of God? (New Testament apocrypha like the Gospel of James for instance) Or is it only the word of god if the church says so?
-What is the age of the Earth?
-Are Thomas Jefferson and other Founding Fathers who were deists in hell right now?
Those are just the religious questions off the top of my head. I'm sure I've got more if I wanted to give it more thought.
As with so many believers, you think your faith qualifies you to define morality.
What qualifies me to decide FOR MYSELF what such a work is is what qualifies you FOR YOURSELF to determine such a thing.
You don't really need me to spell it out for you.
It is impossible to accept the Bible as a ‘great book of morals’ and in the same breath deny its ‘holiness’.
Morality and holiness are two different things. It's really that simple. I can believe in the value of Jesus' moral teachings without thinking they come down from an unseen God--why is that so difficult to understand?
I don't expect you to BELIEVE as I do, but I don't see why you can't UNDERSTAND my position. Why is that so frightening to believers?
The self-righteousness of believers thinking only they get to determine morality--through belief in something THEY believe in that someone else may not--is not surprising.
Morals can flow from religious belief, but all your name calling doesn't mean YOU are the one who gets to decide for ME what *I* see as moral or immoral.
You or anyone else who flames me can search my posts going years back. Sure, I get into flaming back and forth sometimes, but I am on the whole very respectful towards believers. I expect only the same in return about my beliefs--even if they are not in your god.
Have a great Thanksgiving.