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To: river rat
You are entitled to your views, and I won't begrudge them to you because I can't imagine the personal hell you went through in Vietnam. I turned 18 in 1972, and that was when they were using the lottery system for drafting purposes, and I was lucky in that my lottery numbers were always above 200 so I never even received a draft notice. If I had, I would have reported for duty, so I never served either, and I regret not looking into military service when I was still eligible, but I hold those who have served in the highest regard, esp those who served in wartime situations. I support them fully, and if that makes me a "chickenhawk" I guess I will have to live with that denigration. I also used to hunt, and nothing I ever killed was able to shoot back so I guess I am also guilty of false bravado too. I guess the biggest difference between Ted and me is that I am a very private person and he is this very public figure.

I don't know Ted personally, so I have to assess him through second hand accounts from others and from his own personal writings. To me, he seems like someone who has made errors in his past and is now trying to make the best of his present by doing what he considers the correct course of action now. Like all of us, he can't undo his past mistakes, but he can try to make amends for those errors by doing better in the now. His recent writings mostly put him on my side in this cultural war we are engaged in, so I try not to judge him too harshly for his error ridden history. You may be right when you speculate that had he not gotten a deferment and had entered the service, then one of your friends might still be alive to help celebrate your old age, but then again maybe not. Ted might have gone in, and died instead of your friend, but that friend might have then come home and been killed in a car wreck or become another John Kerry. Speculation about alternative choices always have at least two sides. That is why I don't like to speculate after the fact. It just does not do anyone any good.

Ted has a very outrageous personality, and I can understand why you have some antipathy for him. I just hope that you don't have that same antipathy for all of us in that same age range who didn't serve. And to be totally honest here, many of us who drew high numbers in the lottery mentioned above felt we had been blessed and given a new lease on life, myself included. Looking back, I feel some shame for having felt that way, but when you are young and your life is in front of you, sometimes abstract concepts like honor and integrity and service to others aren't the force in your life that they will become later on. In a way, I envy those who were drafted during that time because they learned those abstracts a lot sooner than the rest of us. Their innocence died much sooner so that ours could be extended, and for that, I again say thank you.

91 posted on 11/17/2008 12:00:13 AM PST by Surtur (Palin-Nugent 2012)
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To: Surtur

First - the term chickenhawk should only be applied to those who go to illegal or suspect lengths to avoid duty when called upon and then later become hawks for going to war or enlarging the war.
So that is a designation that doesn’t apply in your case..
You were never called upon.. Be grateful, not regretful.

Secondly - I too was an avid hunter and even more, loved to fish.
That all stopped when I came home.. Life became too precious to destroy for sport or recreation.
But I don’t begrudge folks who do... It’s my quirk, not theirs. I still own and love guns. One of my favorite pastimes is to shoot the hell out of paper, tin cans and rotten oranges with my grandchildren.

And, you’re right about the difference between a private person who remains so, and a public celebrity presenting themselves as a Gung Ho, ass kicking, gun waving, Rambo VII HMFIC — compared to the reality of what they were when their Nation called upon them to be a man - and they weren’t.

Nugent always struck me as the worst kind of REMF.
If I’m wrong about the man - I’ll feel terrible. But for now - I choose to dislike him for what I believe to be true about him. Frankly, I’m now too damned old to really care what is true or false -— I am now a prisoner of my emotions and automatic reflexes and find that I am ruled by them.

Nugent could be doing all the good things and mouthing all the good positions in support of the Nation, our Military and conservative ideals without all the false bravado which he has never demonstrated in real life — and I could still respect him.. As it is, I most certainly don’t.

Do I expect folks to have been always perfect - to respect them? Of course not. Have I done things I’m not proud of? Of course I have. But I am not a public figure and I don’t presume to behave in public as a person I am not.

I don’t really believe that those I lost would have been spared if any of the “men” had not run to Canada or had daddy pull strings for a deferment or could afford to be in college or stoop to the measures that Nugent himself described to the press. (And then later said he lied about it) Hell, I guess some folks even lie to their diary.

It’s just that I KNOW the caliber and measure of some of the men whose lives were cut short - and they were and still are better men than the assholes who ran from duty and most especially Nugent. It strikes me as incredibly cruel and unfair that some severely flawed men live long and prosperous lives, while the finest among us were cut down in their youth.

Right or wrong - Nugent has become my shit magnet.
Right or wrong - Nugent is a hero to many, I’m not among them.


92 posted on 11/17/2008 9:20:12 AM PST by river rat (Semper Fi - You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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