“I was quite clearly not presenting China and France as examples of morally upright communities.
China is one example. Though, of course, I am not holding China up as an example of moral perfection.
France is way more aggressively secular than the USA, and they’re not so bad off.
My point is, we have no grounds for concluding that all atheistic nations are doomed to immorality. I wouldn’t jump to such conclusions”.
Ok, so show us a NON-failed NON-immoral atheistic society already!!!!!
FWIW an immoral society IS a failed society.
Why do you insist on continuing to post cut-up, jumbled, and therefore misleading, representations of my posts?
Are you hoping that people who haven’t read my actual posts (or who just don’t remember them) will see what you posted and think I actually wrote those words in that order?
It’s dishonest and manipulative posting, and it shows an unwillingness to treat me and this forum with respect.
Please try to be more respectful and . . . yes, moral . . . tpanther. We all would appreciate it.
As for the moral uprightness of China and France, I’m not expert enough in their cultures to say much about them.
Hey, we all have issues with China’s government and many of their practices. However, I would not condemn the Chinese people as immoral. And, considering China’s powerful position on the world’s stage, I don’t think it is accurate to call it a failed nation. The same goes for France, though I have fewer qualms with their government.
But really, this whole discussion of France and China is somewhat tangential to the issues here.
Religion has been a dominant institution throughout the world for a very long time, and it is only quite recently that secular institutions have even attempted to replace them. So, when we look back throughout history, we see many failing nations, most of them religious.
Yes, we have also seen frightening atheistic nations, communist and fascist nations, though I think they were terrible because of their fascism and corruption, and not their atheism.
We have also seen the USA and France set examples as powerful, forward-thinking nations able to erect a boundary between church and state. We are only beginning to see what a rational, democratic and capitalistic atheistic society could look like.
That is why I say that there is not enough evidence to conclude that all atheistic societies are doomed to failure and/or immorality.