[JasonInPoland]

I was quite clearly not presenting China and France as examples of morally upright communities. But you make it look like I was. Yes, when you take various parts of different posts and paste them together irresponsibly, you can effectively put words in my mouth. Thank you for that demonstration.

[tpanther]

“I was quite clearly not presenting China and France as examples of morally upright communities.

China is one example. Though, of course, I am not holding China up as an example of moral perfection.

France is way more aggressively secular than the USA, and they’re not so bad off.

My point is, we have no grounds for concluding that all atheistic nations are doomed to immorality. I wouldn’t jump to such conclusions”.

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Ok, so show us a NON-failed NON-immoral atheistic society already!!!!!

FWIW an immoral society IS a failed society.

[metmom]

So just how do you consider China and France *successful?

You admit that China, at least, is not morally upright. Then what’s successful? Human rights? Working conditions for the people? Freedom for the people? Standard of living? Health? Justice system?

How is France successful? They’re about ready to be overrun by Islam. That doesn’t sound too successful to me.