Cent' Anni!
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Posted on 10/03/2008 4:23:29 PM PDT by TenthAmendmentChampion
And I do not profess to speak for the faith of Muslims. I only provided the teaching of the Church.
For whatever reason, God did not reveal his saviour side 3500 years ago. Nonetheless, Abraham and his descendants were saved by their faith. 2000 years ago, God revealed his Triune nature to mankind. Those who do not acknowledge all three heads of God worship somebody else.
They were saved by the Grace of God, through the sacrifice of Christ. So, just to be clear, your contention is that if someone alive today professes to worship the God of Abraham but does not believe in Christ, they are worshiping some other God than the God of Abraham?
Neither did you answer my question. Your silence leads me to believe that you believe Muslims are Christians. Correct?
I said they claim to worship the God of Abraham. If that is true, then we worship the same God.
The teaching of the church is very vague on this topic. By saying that Muslims claim to be worshipping the God of Abraham, and not following it up with any reference to Christ being a part of God, is not doing justice to one's beliefs.
If that is true, then we worship the same God.
If we worship the same God, then Muslims are Christians. I am sure that you would agree with that statement. Do you?
In spite of our discussion, I feel adamant that unless the Catholic Church believes that Muslims are Christians, then they should not allow them to profess the God of Abraham in public. A non-christian cannot evangelize for Christ or spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I can't say I do, which is why I kept alluding to the Jews. I don't define "Christian" as one who worships the God of Abraham. I define it as one who follows the teachings of Christ. Now, Christians certainly worship the God of Abraham - however, I believe that the Jews worship Him as well, despite the fact they may not know Him as He has revealed himself to the rest of us.
In spite of our discussion, I feel adamant that unless the Catholic Church believes that Muslims are Christians, then they should not allow them to profess the God of Abraham in public. A non-christian cannot evangelize for Christ or spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Again, maybe you are correct; however, that same reasoning would apply to the Jews, and we would have to say the Jews don't worship the God of Abraham, the father of Israel. A tenuous position, in my opinion.
I don't believe the Church should be in the business of judging what is truly in another's heart. The way I see this is told well - much better than I could do - by C.S. Lewis in The Last Battle. The Calormene Soldier who sought Truth and the Good, despite outwardly serving Tash, was in fact serving Aslan, as He is the source of all Good.
Cent' Anni!
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I think I defined a Christian earlier. To repeat, a Christian must not simply follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, but must also believe in Christ as his Lord and Saviour and believe Christ to be the Triune God.
I believe that the Jews worship Him as well, despite the fact they may not know Him as He has revealed himself to the rest of us.
Be careful. This is close to what the Arians (not Aryans) believed. This heresy existed in the Church from the third to seventh century and was resoundingly fought by various bishops and emperors.
I don't believe the Church should be in the business of judging what is truly in another's heart.
Ditto for individuals. Nonetheless, individuals must have a clear understanding of what they believe and who they worship. Individuals run the risk of being led astray by false profits whose gospel is not one of Christ.
How is that any different than the Muslims? That is where you are losing me.
Be careful. This is close to what the Arians (not Aryans) believed. This heresy existed in the Church from the third to seventh century and was resoundingly fought by various bishops and emperors.
The Arian Heresy denied the trinity. How am I approaching that? The teachings of Christ clearly demonstrate the doctrine of the Trinity. Those who hold that God is not Triune are Jews and Muslims and Mormons and others - I believe there are righteous among them, who will be saved by God despite the fact they do not understand His true nature.
Ditto for individuals. Nonetheless, individuals must have a clear understanding of what they believe and who they worship. Individuals run the risk of being led astray by false profits whose gospel is not one of Christ.
Have I said otherwise?
I have been careful not to make any assumptions about the god that the Muslims worship. I know that you have stated that the Catholic Church has said that they worship the God of Abraham. Further, I think that we both agree that the Jews worshiped the God of Abraham.
3500 years ago, the God of Abraham made himself known to mankind as "God the Father." 2000 years ago the God of Abraham manifested himself as the Triune God. Those who have been born in the last 2000 years that worship God the Father (only) deny the Triune God. Anyone that woships only God the Father, denies Christ and in a some sense are not different, even though their individual dogmas may differ sharply.
The Arian Heresy denied the trinity. How am I approaching that? The teachings of Christ clearly demonstrate the doctrine of the Trinity.
Your arguments, while explicit in some areas, were somewhat vague about what you believed of the Triune God. You are correct that the teachings of Christ clearly show the divinity of Christ and his role as our Lord and Saviour. I did not understand your personal belief vis a vis the Trinity until your "confession" in your previous post. Welcome Brother!
Those who hold that God is not Triune are Jews and Muslims and Mormons and others - I believe there are righteous among them, who will be saved by God despite the fact they do not understand His true nature.
My salvation does not depend on what others believe, only in what I believe. While it is my duty to spread the Gospel, I do this on an individual basis. I am neither in agreement or disagreement with your statement.
Have I said otherwise?
Again, and it is hard to know a person through a small handful of posts, your arguments in some cases were specific and sometimes vague. Now that I know you believe in the Triune God and the divinity of Christ, this is a moot point. I now understand that you clearly have not said otherwise.
I do agree with you on the Jews. However, I haven't said "boo" about whom the Muslims worship - I have only said they claim to worship the God of Abraham. It is a fine distinction, but an important one.
3500 years ago, the God of Abraham made himself known to mankind as "God the Father." 2000 years ago the God of Abraham manifested himself as the Triune God. Those who have been born in the last 2000 years that worship God the Father (only) deny the Triune God. Anyone that woships only God the Father, denies Christ and in a some sense are not different, even though their individual dogmas may differ sharply.
You could argue, based solely on the OT, that God has always shown Himself as the Trinity. It was the arrival of Jesus that clubbed us over the head and made it abundantly clear. We all see through a glass, darkly; some of us have been blessed to understand Him better than others. Even those who deny the Trinity may not deny Him - their ignorance may save them. It is an uncertain line.
Your arguments, while explicit in some areas, were somewhat vague about what you believed of the Triune God. You are correct that the teachings of Christ clearly show the divinity of Christ and his role as our Lord and Saviour. I did not understand your personal belief vis a vis the Trinity until your "confession" in your previous post. Welcome Brother!
Grazie!
My salvation does not depend on what others believe, only in what I believe. While it is my duty to spread the Gospel, I do this on an individual basis. I am neither in agreement or disagreement with your statement.
And that is fine. (I don't want to start hashing out salvation with you! I feel we may have different views on that.) However, this whole thread started with the idea of a Muslim publicly reading (not preaching) the Bible. You were concerned about that instance, and I encouraged it, as I believe it is an effective way to evangelize. Having a well-known Muslim participate in this will likely interest other Muslims to tune in and hear. I can only pray that the Holy Spirit then demonstrates the Truth of the Scripture to them.
Prego!
I have only said they claim to worship the God of Abraham. It is a fine distinction, but an important one.
I agree that it is an important distinction. And you were very careful to say what the Vatican stated.
You could argue, based solely on the OT, that God has always shown Himself as the Trinity. It was the arrival of Jesus that clubbed us over the head and made it abundantly clear.
I will mostly agree with your argument. The Holy Spirit was given to the OT folks through the prophets. It is now ubiquitous.
You were concerned about that instance, and I encouraged it, as I believe it is an effective way to evangelize. Having a well-known Muslim participate in this will likely interest other Muslims to tune in and hear. I can only pray that the Holy Spirit then demonstrates the Truth of the Scripture to them.
I earlier stated that only Christians should evangelize. I have rethought things. History teaches us that God's Will will be done, regardless of who gets in the way. For many years, the Church flourished, in spite of many misguided popes. (Please do not read "many" as "all"). In this particular case, it is the Word of God, not the Muslim, that reaches people.
The Visible Church has made many mistakes in the past. One problem is how it has evangelized throughout the centuries. Too often, Christianity is presented in a Western Culture, making it difficult for others living in different cultures to see what it means to them. Worse yet, some evangelizers have mixed belief in Western Culture with belief in Christianity. Evangelization in Japan, China, India and 1600 North America are but a few examples.
It seems like we are on the same page. I don’t think I have anything to add. Thank you for a good conversation!
I greatly enjoyed it too! God bless you!
Here’s the broadcast in case you wanted to receive blessings of the Holy Spirit. It’s in Italian:
http://www.rai.tv/mppopupvideo/0,,Livetv%5EO%5E134239,0.html
Thank you for the link! I’m at home on dial-up right now. Do you know how long this will continue? Perhaps I can catch portions of it tomorrow at work. Io capisco l’Italiano! ;-)
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