Posted on 09/26/2008 11:46:08 PM PDT by Zakeet
Round 1: Where do you stand on the Paulson bailout plan?
Obama says that Main Street was suffering long before Wall Street and that we have to move swiftly and wisely. Also, he says that he's put forward proposals to make this plan work better, most importantly to make sure we bail out the deadbeats who are being foreclosed on, too, and not just the Richie Riches at Lehman. Oh, and by the way and Bush and McCain caused this whole thing.
McCain opens by saying that he wishes Ted Kennedy all the best, signaling that he believes Sarah Palin has brought the GOP base onboard for good. He then points to the bipartisan nature of the modified Paulson package. And says that this is only the end of the beginning of the financial crisis. Neither guy answered the question, prompting Lehrer to re-ask.
On redirect, Obama says he can't say whether he's for it or not because he hasn't seen the details. But that it's important to remember that he warned of the crisis two years ago. Which kind of leaves one wondering why, if he knew that the "worst economic crisis since the Great Depression" was coming down the pike, all he did was write a letter to Paulson instead of acting to head it off.
McCain says that he is going to vote for the bailout and then talks about how important it is to hold people accountable for their actions. This is a close one since neither guy conveys any deep understanding of the situation or insight into the solution.
Round to Obama
Round 2: Are there fundamental difference between your two approaches to the crisis?
McCain goes right after spending, hitting his reform theme and blaming Republicans for their earmarks, out of control spending, and scandals. It's like he's daring Obama to be harder on the GOP than he is.
Obama says that earmarks are bad--though not as bad as "the special interests"! But Obama maintains that McCain's tax cuts for evil corporations and the rich are a worse source of waste than earmarks. Standing traditional supply-side economics on its head, Obama says he wants to grow the economy from the "bottom up."
The two then go back and forth on McCain's business tax cuts, culminating in McCain pointing that the U.S. business tax is 35 percent, Ireland's is 11 percent, and that lowering business taxes is one of the ways you keep businesses in America and create jobs. When Obama challenges this, he says that all of the "loopholes" actually make business taxes too low--suggesting that he'd like to make the U.S. less hospitable to businesses. Then McCain hits Obama for talking and not doing. Obama looks peevish.
Round to McCain
Round 3: As president, what will you give up to pay for the $700 billion bailout?
Obama says, quite nonsensically, that he's going to give up foreign oil by turning to wind, solar, and alternative fuels. He then goes on to talk about all the other things he is going to spend money on. If you were at all concerned that Obama's "no new taxes" pledge might not be written in stone, he isn't setting your mind at ease.
McCain says that we have to get spending under control and that he'd examine every agency of the government. Then, just throw an elbow at Iowa voters, he says that the first thing he'd do is cut the ethanol subsidy. Also, in an attempt to drive Michael Goldfarb from his staff, he singles out the DDX program in a long list of government waste that he'd go after.
When asked again what he would give up, Obama ducks the question, saying, again, that he will invest in ending our dependence on foreign oil. Not to pick nits but technically, that's new spending. Lehrer seems perturbed.
McCain then goes on the offensive saying we ought to consider a spending freeze (minus defense, entitlements, and veterans affairs). Thinking he has an opening, Obama pounces, saying that he wouldn't endorse a spending freeze because there are lots of under-funded programs that need more money from the federal government. It's not clear how this is helping reassure people that he won't raise their taxes.
Round to McCain
Round 4: What are the lessons of Iraq?
McCain says that you need to be mindful that strategies can fail and that flexibility is important. He says that we're winning in Iraq and that we will come home with victory and honor and a newly-minted ally in the region. He gives Gen. Petraeus and the troops all the credit.
Obama says that this is a fundamental difference between the two men because six years ago he stood up the salons of Hyde Park and bravely opposed the war. He then paints a picture of American defeat around the globe and claims that al Qaeda is stronger than it's been at any time since 2001. For whatever it's worth, this last assertion is counter to recent analysis of al Qaeda's strength. It betrays a staggering ignorance on Obama's part; his position deteriorates from there.
Round to McCain
Round 5: About that Afghanistan . . .
Obama says we need more troops in Afghanistan, which is why we need to pull out of Iraq and get tough with Pakistan.
McCain says that he regrets the mistake we made by neglecting the Afghanis after they drove the Soviets out, allowing the Taliban to take hold. He then paints Obama as reckless for wanting to cut off aid to a tottering nuclear power. The knowledge gap is beginning to show and it gets worse when Obama mangles pre-Musharraf Pakistani history.
As the exchange goes on it becomes clear that these guys like each other about as much as Ali and Foreman did.
Round to McCain
Round 6: How big a threat is Iran?
McCain says that a nuclear Iran is an existential threat to Israel and a strategic threat to the stability of the region. He notes that Russia is blocking action at the U.N. and touts a "League of Democracies" which could implement serious and tough sanctions on Iran. But "have no doubt," he's ready to throw down. He gallantly doesn't mention that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad seems to prefer Obama.
Obama says that we need Russia and China to help with sanction. But the real thing we need with Iran is--hold on to your seats--tough, direct diplomacy!
McCain hits Obama for pledging to talk with Ahmadinejad without preconditions. Obama should just take his lumps here--this is the cost of winning the Democratic nomination. But instead he tries to weasel out of it, saying that he'll "sit down with anybody" but that there have to be "preparation." Then he tries to get cute by saying that Ahmadinejad may not be the most important person in Iran. It's a weird pride that keeps Obama committed to a losing position when he should just find different ground to fight on. You'll notice, by the way, that whenever he loses his way, he blurts out "President Bush."
McCain says that his opponent's views aren't "just naive, but dangerous." Obama isn't doing anything to dispel this notion.
Round to McCain
Round 7: Russia. Competitor? Enemy? Partner? Discuss.
Obama says that the evidence of recent weeks says we need to reevaluate our relationship with Russia and that we should start expanding NATO immediately. But that we can't return to a Cold War posture.
McCain says that Obama's first reaction to the Russia-Georgia conflict was to urge both sides to show restraint, evincing further "naiveté." It's pretty rough, particularly when he starts talking about the specifics of South Ossetia.
Round to McCain
Round 8: What is the likelihood of another 9/11?
McCain says it's "much less than it was the day after 9/11" and that we are a safer nation, even though we are not safe. He talks about how he pushed for the creation of the 9/11 Commission against the wishes of President Bush and how he worked with Democrats to pass most of the Commission's recommendations. Most gratifyingly, he talks about how important it is to bolster American intelligence capabilities, particularly in the area of HUMINT.
Obama says that we are safer in some ways, but still have a long way to go. He smartly points out that we have yet to harden transportation points (excluding airports), chemical facilities, and other attractive targets. He also talks about the need to focus on nuclear proliferation, in order to keep nuclear materials out of the hands of terrorists. This is the most comfortable and commanding he's been all night.
McCain goes back to Obama's desire to withdrawal from Iraq, saying that Obama doesn't realize how interconnected Iraq is to the wider terrorist threat. Obama responds that Iraq is a huge disaster and hindrance to everything America needs to do in the world.
Then McCain throws down the gauntlet with what I suspect will be the only line people take away from the night: "There are some advantages to experience and knowledge and judgment. And I honestly don't believe that Sen. Obama has the knowledge or experience and has made the wrong judgments in a number of areas."
Then he takes another big swing: "You know we've seen this stubbornness before in this administration, to cling to a belief that somehow the surge has not succeeded and failing to acknowledge that he was wrong about the surge shows to me that we need more flexibility in a president of the United States than that. . . . I don't think I need any on-the-job training."
This round is a Rorschach. If you love Obama, he acquitted himself well. If you have questions about Obama, you found McCain's assault devastating. The big question is how undecideds will see this last exchange.
Round to McCain
My scorecard says that McCain won the night 7-1, which frankly surprises me. On paper that looks like a rout, but McCain didn't seem that dominant as it was happening. Certainly there was nothing in the debate that Obama will worry about as having been a big blow. I saw McCain winning the debate pretty handily, but I doubt he scored any larger strategic victory.
The McCain camp needs to point out that Pakistan is a NUCLEAR POWER.
Yes, that was a weird moment.
I wore an MIA bracelet through my junior high years. It wasn't the same; but I did care nonetheless. And, my soldier made it home, alive.
John McCain stood out and in my lights many years ago due his determination to get our soldiers home and finding our MIAs.
I'm fairly sure Obama feels that mother's pain (who gave him the bracelet); but I don't think Obama groks it all at anything remotely resembling an "intrinsic" level. John McCain does.
John McCain has zero degrees of separation regarding our soldiers. With Obama, it's like 180 degrees of separation, and why the left thinks being a "community organizer" is something equivalent to being a "soldier". These are not the same, at all, whatsoever.
“I’ve got a bracelet, too!” mommy, mommy no fair!
Freaking wimp!
bttt
Senator McCain said a thing last night, very quietly, which kind of got buried; but to me was extremely vital.
It has to do with our veterans. He said he knows how much and the kind of care our active and veterans are going to need.
He's right. And this is a huge point. On the ground, the word is, about the sheer numbers of military folks (and their families) who are going to be needing various kinds of care. From traumatic brain injuries, PTSD, missing limbs, etc.
This is not at all a small item to think about.
We already know the Dems are focused on categorizing all military as PTSD and using this to rail against the "evil" U.S. They'll post non-stop pictures of soldiers physically maimed through "Bush's War".
All this means is, they'll use more funds to promote their politics, than to actually go to where care "funds" needs to go.
At current, HIV/AIDS and Breast Cancer get HUGE funds in contrast to say, TBI (traumatic brain injury); but the numbers of those with TBI outstrips by huge numbers those with HIV/Aids and breast cancer.
Obama and his coalition will, by their very nature and agenda, be reliably counted on to make a mess of getting the right kind of help to our soldiers.
How do I know this. I met far too many Vietnam vets in the San Francisco Bay Area who WOULDN'T go get help and because they ran into too many "anti-war" peeps at the places they were supposed to go get help. So, these guys didn't go for help. They needed help, and most of what they got was the classic, sniping "anti-war" bs from many who got JOBS working at Vet facilities.
It screwed them up, even more.
It makes the bile rise in my throat to even think of that happening, again.
Regarding Fannie / Freddie —
Here’s the dirty secret why McCain isn’t putting the finger on the right names: some republicans nibbled on the table scraps. That’s one reason why Fannie/Freddie donated to republicans, a few scraps put a muzzle on the GOP leadership. That’s why even the crystal clean republican legislators are muzzled.
Unless you are a part of the 50 million demographic that can vote, but don't pay income tax.
McCain needed to go after the Dems on Fannie Mae and hammer it home that they blocked legislation a few years ago to rein this crap on Wall St.I noticed right off that McCain decided to make Obama is sole target and leave the dems alone.
I believe this is a blunder that, if continued, will cost him the election.
McCain could’ve scored a knockout by tying the current bailout issue to the Dems’ love of Fannie/Freddie and push of mortgages to people with bad or no credit, along with Obama’s fundraising from those companies.He's got another chance in the next debate. We should all email the McCain campaign and BEG them to start using this against the dems and their OMessiah.
When he could get the first name right, Jim, er, Tom, er John
“I have a bracelet too. It is from...uh...er...here...wait...let me look...it is from Mad e China...ah made in china?...uh...here...um...well it’s a braclet and it is not anything like Bush’s”.
.
Let the DOJ investigate the FM/FM crooks, IMO the Rats have a lot to hide, the Reps not so much!
I disagree with your scoring on Round 3. Neither man has any clue as to how to pay for the bailout and it showed. Obama didn’t have any answers and McCain’s suggestions were so ridiculous as to make him appear foolish. Freeze everything except defense, veterans affairs, and entitlements won’t work - how do you freeze debt payments when you’re adding an additional trillion dollars to it? And I seem to remember reading somewhere that Congress appropriates spending, not the president. I really thought this was McCain’s weakest moment in the debate.
John McCain spoke about speaking about the war in ways which were at best temperate, lest we give info, if not inspiration, away to America's enemies.
In this regard, John McCain was chastizing Obama, and Senator McCain was ABSOLUTELY right to do so: "Loose Lips Sink Ships".
Not long after this, Senator Obama went on to talk about America not being safe, and he went on to list the areas, very specifically, which were wide open to potential terrorist attack; instead of speaking in noblesse generalities.
I heard him; and my mouth instantly went into "Hi, I'm So. California's electrical grid.. we're waiting on you AQ, we are like so vulnerable, hit us please".
Egads. Obama just really doesn't get national security. He either doesn't get it, or thinks he's back in the 'hood speaking to the people in Mr. Roger's neighborhood. blech.
O’Bama has his Flag Pin on his lapel, don’t think McCain had one.
McCain missed several golden opportunities to really stuff O’Bama.
Toward the end of the debate O’Bama mentioned missile defense.
There are plenty of quotes of O’Bama saying he would cut ‘Starwars’ spending, new missile and warhead technology spending.
We must stay in the the defense race.
He can’t wish it away. Particularly w/ Putin.
Since our ‘wonderful detente’ w/ Russia they have built at least 2 new ballistic missiles.
The Topol M ground launched several yrs. ago and a new sub launched announced a few days ago.
I thought McCain’s reasoning was superior to O’Bama’s. However McCain needs to have SPECIFIC facts and solutions at hand.
That is where O’Bama was better, IMHO.
On some of the questions McCain used generalities, O’Bama said, ‘One, I’d do...,Two, I’d do..., and so on.
Actually the ad came out while they were still debating. I was pointed to it by the live thread well before Ø finished his ahs and uhs.
Thanks Ghosty! ;)
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