How would they feel if we unleashed our secret weapon on them?
Posted on 09/19/2008 2:43:04 PM PDT by xzins
Soldier gets 7 months in deaths of 4 Iraqis Pretrial agreement results in reduction of court’s sentence of 40 years’ confinement
VILSECK, Germany — A Germany-based soldier who testified Thursday that he pulled security while his fellow soldiers killed four Iraqi detainees and "didn’t care" at the time that they would end up dead will spend seven months in prison, for his role in the incident. He also will see his rank reduced to private and receive a dishonorable discharge.
A military judge sentenced Spc. Belmor Ramos to 40 years’ confinement in the 2007 slayings after he pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit murder, but the sentence was reduced to seven months as part of a pretrial agreement. As part of the agreement, Ramos agreed to testify against other members of his unit.
Ramos, 23, who appeared at a court-martial Thursday, was one of seven soldiers charged with conspiracy to commit premeditated murder stemming from an incident in March or April 2007 in or near Baghdad. Three of them — 1st Sgt. John E. Hatley, 40; Sgt. 1st Class Joseph P. Mayo, 27, and Sgt. Michael P. Leahy Jr., 26 — also are charged with premeditated murder for allegedly shooting four Iraqi detainees in the head and dumping their bodies in a canal.
Ramos had waived his right to a pretrial hearing and pleaded guilty. Under military law, the pretrial agreement is kept secret until the judge sentences the convicted soldier. The soldier then is given the lesser of the two sentences.
On Thursday, Ramos told the court his version of the events when he was serving with Company A, 1st Battalion, 2nd Infantry Regiment (now Company A, 1st Battalion, 18th Infantry Regiment) as a gunner in Hatley’s Humvee.
According to information that came out during the trial, the unit’s patrol was fired upon, and the soldiers detained two Iraqi men who were seen running away from a place where weapons were found. Two more Iraqi men were later detained.
After the Iraqis were detained, Hatley said they would be "taken care of" and asked the men in his Humvee if they were OK with it, Ramos said.
"I said I was cool with it. ... I understood at the time that taking care of them would mean that they would end up dead. I didn’t care," he testified.
The Iraqis were handcuffed with plastic ties, blindfolded and taken to the company’s combat outpost. Ramos said he went to his room and watched a DVD before going on a second patrol to take the Iraqis to a canal where he pulled security.
"Although I didn’t see the shooting, I heard the shots. When (Hatley, Mayo and Leahy) returned from the canal, I assumed (the Iraqis) were dead.… I wanted them dead," he said.
The defense called several 1-18 soldiers as character witnesses during the sentencing phase of the trial who testified that Ramos was respected within his unit despite the incident.
Sgt. Gustavo Pena said he hung out with Ramos in the barracks and would gladly have him in his Bradley fighting vehicle crew. Most members of the battalion knew about the killing of the detainees and Ramos’ involvement, he said.
"Their opinion is that he is a good soldier," he said.
Defense lawyer Capt. Patrick Bryan said Ramos’ guilty plea and demoting him to private would be enough to deter soldiers from emulating his actions.
He said the Army was the best place to rehabilitate him and added that a dishonorable discharge could mean the Chilean-born Ramos would lose U.S. citizenship, which he had gained by virtue of his enlistment.
However, prosecutor Capt. Derrick Grace argued that Ramos’ actions violated the Geneva Conventions and cast a dark shadow on the Army and his unit.
"Soldiers’ decisions on the battlefield should be given great deference, but his isn’t even a close call.
"Even if they were insurgents, they were obviously out of the fight. He should be thankful that his standard of proof and punishment is not being used to judge him," he said.
Judge Lt. Col. Edward O’Brien sentenced Ramos to 40 years’ confinement, reduction to private and a dishonorable discharge.
Guess there IS something to be said for hillbilly livin’.
But I guess it explains the Navy bein’ in KS.
Thanks for clearing that mystery up for me Obamalamadingdong.
How would they feel if we unleashed our secret weapon on them?
Now that’s a keeper. At first glance it reminded me of Babe Ruth but even he wasn’t that ugly.
Lidice. It Worked
I wish you'd have waited a day to post that.
I'd already designated another post as the most ignorant one of the day, and now you've gone and muffed it all up.
BTW, did you catch which uniform the "spawn" is wearing these days?
Be a good lad and go fetch us a picture, will you? We wouldn't want to mistake one of our Iraqi or coalition allies helping us defend Iraq for a spawned terrorist, now would we?
He's standing up.
none.... they're dead terrorists. Found in country with weapons, trust me...they were not for hunting.
You have no idea about the mindset of someone that's been in combat and seen friends killed and maimed while bureaucrats determine that actually capturing the killers and letting them go wins the "hearts and minds".
The community sees the murdering terrorist come back into the community even though they were captured by American troops WITH weapons. How many times does the civilian populace have to see that until they refuse to stick they're necks out to identify and turn these maggots in? The mistake was broadcasting the elimination of the enemy. Who knows what kind of pressure JAG put on the guy to testify in order to save his a##. Keep a guy up for a couple of days and slam photos of the dead guys and telling him that "EVERYBODY KNOWS you're guilty, but I'm here to help you" makes tired naive guys flip.
This is the new front on our troops, the legal war. The lawyers and the CO's will show up in 10 years running as "combat vets" for congress under the democrat party banner, with 6 Purple Hearts.... mark my words. Biden's kid is going over as part of the 111th Fighting Briefcases. So he's a shoo-in for elected position after his tour.
I knew it. Whenever KantianBurke pops up on these threads, Oztrich Boy is never far behind.
And you never had the decency to recant your constant slander against the Haditha Marines either. I guess being a loudmouth on the Internet means never having to say you’re sorry.
What a lively and entertaining discussion thread. :-)
Ramos will get 7 months (compared to the judge’s recommendation of 40 years), but never pulled a trigger. Wonder what the prosecutors have planned for those who did?
It seems the military is trying to get a handle on the troops’ meeting out their own justice in Iraq, which is understandable. However, there also seems to be a pattern emerging where the troops on the ground receive the least protection with the new “gentler and kinder” rules of engagement and arrest. When the troops know an insurgent will be released because they threw their weapons down prior to being caught, it sends them a message. The troops are responding.
Military leadership may get a handle on enforcing good order and discipline on their troops, but at what price? The beauty and strength of the American military fighting force is that each man fights for their brother. They don’t serve and fight for the medals. They don’t go into battle for the sheer thrill of killing. They fight for the guy next to them.
This catch and release program with the latest and greatest Rules of Engagement in play in Iraq may be “winning the hearts and minds” of the Iraqis, but it’s taking a toll on the servicemen. These prosecutions are also sending the troops a message.
OB's obvious attempt to compare Saddam Hussein to Adolph Hitler is wonderful. And a good reminder to us all of the need to fight and destroy all manifestations of unrestrained evil in the hope of preventing future genocides.
And yes it worked. The Nazi threat was eliminated. Saddam has had his neck stretched and the threat level in Iraq is greatly reduced, promising that brighter day.
Enough bandwidth wasted on the Bobbsey Twins, it’s evident they’ve gone back into their world of fantasy or under their rock, whichever their choice is this week. Like Red says, one is never far behind the other.
Okay, okay. Can I have another shot at your picture of Obamalamadingdong trying to write his name into the history books?
LOL! Isn’t that a pisser?
I like your name for the One, it really fits.
It isn’t my name for the One. I give full credit to Girlene for having introduced me to it.
And seriously, the two aforementioned creaturnous (cretinous?)slime have the right to their own opinion. I just happen to disagree fully with it.
In fact, I so fully disagree, I would proudly stand before our accused troops, waving my flag. And if I accidentally struck these two about the face and ears repeatedly with my flag pole, in the process, oops.
I also happen to think that theirs is the mindset bringing on all these prosecutions. Why can’t debriefings include admonitions, from the commanding officers, that whatever happened outside the wire stays outside the wire. If someone can’t handle some of the aspects of their service, go tell a priest or similar counselor whose confidentiality offers some protection from spending the rest of your life rotting in prison.
The insidious destruction of the level of trust between a group of soldiers so alarms me that to give in one iota to any other opinion supporting that destruction would make me think the flag I will end up waving is monochrome. And we may as well start speaking French.
My avoidance of your “cause” isn’t due to cowardice but rather because the mods, after being beseiged by your censorious instict, requested that I do so. Judging from your posts which freely indulge in profanity and personal venom, perhaps you should reread FR’s posting guidelines and rules and do likewise.
But since you’ve brought the subject up again and the mods have ignored a request that your potty language be removed, I’ll duly respond with my position which hasn’t changed and which you attempted to have me banned for. The Haditha group themselves have admitted to killing those civilians. Their defense rests solely on the “fog of war” argument. Judging from the events of that day I don’t believe them and consider the conesquences of their trials equivalent to OJ’s not guilt murder verdict. Others are free to make up their own minds about what happened.
The irony of all this is that you’re launching this junvenile attack on a thread that - surprise - has a disgrace to the uniform being punished for being an accessory to murder. Which was my point all along - not all who serve are automatically morally pristine and when they violate our country’s laws, they need to be punished espcially if their actions put other troops lives at risk.
Then He will also say to those on His left, " Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me." (Matthew 25:41-43)
How many will be lost, not for what they did, but for what they failed to do?
Okay bighead, they say it is ok to talk to yourself, but when you start to answer yourself, well... But strangely enough sometimes when you do, I somehow feel better.
Aw riddle sticks...I was waiting for a day of reckoning on post #56...perhaps #58 will be it...
You know...this whatshisnameburp....to think he would fawn over Evan or Frank if they were brought home in a flag draped box...then THEN he would be happy. Let’s punish those who fought for their life and ours.......not to mention whathisnameburp probably couldn’t even handle the turblence on a flight to Kuwait, not to mention a sandstorm and the stinky air. How about carry a heavy load of gear, keeping the sweat out of your eyes while aiming at a Pecan Sandy and avoiding the lil shiny things in the road that might make you go boom? Ya...I hope whathisnameburp can sleep well every freaking night on his comfy pillow and not give one thought about the real heroes. I hope the real sandman comes to get him and then THEN he can bow to their chant of allah begging them for a swift death.
Whatshisnameburp go to Iraq and mourn the death of the enemy...and I hope you never set foot in a National Cemetery...go look for Spc Ahmed yourself since the innocent civilians are probably just giving him a tour of their wonderful sites and sounds of Iraq. What have you done to help? Please tell.
LOL! You want me to censor my remarks while whining about my censorious instict? You really overestimate my pull with the Mods. So many people dislike you that the Case of Who Got KantianBurke Suspended is a bit like the Murder on the Orient Express.
Anyway, as I recall it, the thing that got you suspended were ghastly, inappropriate remarks to Haditha Marine family members.
But even you must see there's really nothing personal in anyone's reaction to you. It's quite the reverse. You say things that are deliberately inflammatory and ill-informed. Comparing the exonerations of the Marines to the verdict in the OJ Simpson trial is just silly.
On the other hand, you get all prissy over jibes in response to you, an anonymous screen name.
I appreciate your restraint in staying off the Haditha threads. So let's stick with a good thing and go back to mutual avoidance.
Then I found this on someone's homepage and I couldn't stop giggling. "To announce that there must be no criticism of the KB, or that we are to stand by the KB, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
I try, you know, I really try. But one must remember that this clan is wont to kill pigs and eat them. Visual proof is available upon request.
Then, of course, there is WHAT YOU SAID
Bravo, baby! Extremely well said!
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