Posted on 09/11/2008 10:59:13 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
Opposition defends Joint Strike Fighter over simulated dogfights
September 11, 2008
THE federal Opposition has dismissed new doubts about the multi-billion dollar Joint Strike Fighter project and the jet's performance.
The JSF jets, for which Australia is likely to pay $16 billion, were comprehensively beaten in highly classified simulated dogfights against Russian Sukhoi fighters, it has been reported.
The war games, conducted at Hawaii's Hickam airbase last month, were witnessed by at least four RAAF personnel and a member of Australia's peak military spy agency, the Defence Intelligence Organisation, The West Australian said.
Opposition defence spokesman Nick Minchin said he was taking "with a grain of salt" the validity of the report.
"This is based on a computer game, computer modelling of the aircraft," he told Sky News.
"This is not real life."
Senator Minchin said he had a classified briefing on the JSF from its US manufacturer Lockheed-Martin which had promoted the aircraft as the most advanced jet fighter ever.
"I can't really say much about it, but this is a phenomenal aircraft.
"As our chief of defence Angus Houston has said this is a most extraordinary aircraft, it is the right aircraft for Australia."
The multi-purpose fighter would be the backbone of the United States military, Senator Minchin said.
"We are fortunate to be in it and the government should move to make the decision to acquire it."
WA Liberal backbencher Dennis Jensen said he had spoken to a third party with knowledge of the final classified test results who had claimed the JSF had been clubbed like baby seals by the simulated Sukhois, The West Australian reported.
He said the government should demand that the US Government sell it the F-22 which was already in operation instead of the JSF.
(Excerpt) Read more at theaustralian.news.com.au ...
PSYOPS....
“Last line of this excerpt tells a lot.”
Interesting article. I find it hard to believe the Sukhois could have done well without working radar guided missiles. Was the F-35 stealth modeled to work, or fail? Or, did the scenarios used involve poor stealth aspects (angles) of the F-35?
Inquiring minds want to know, but I doubt we ever will as the details are doubtless classified.
ping
It’s enough to know that there are people in and out of uniform who would happily cook the books to keep the F-22 line open.
I as a fighter jet buff am not surprised by this.
Historically in video games, which unfortunately, I’ve played a lot, the Sukhois and the Migs are a match if not better than most simulated US aircraft. In the latest installment of Ace Combat, the obvious maneuverability and performance curb is in favor of the Russian made aircraft. The F-22 is king in these simulations thought.
Going down the current line of US jetfighters, the least favored in video games is the F16. The F18 has a lot of maneuverability and feels like a light weight. The F15 is like a flying brick with rockets. On the other side, the Russian built aircraft are like ballerinas, turning and dodging effortlessly. The best by far, as I already stated, is the F22, there is no match to it and in any simulated video game it makes things easy, almost too easy.
I wouldn’t trust simulated games, when all is said and done, the final outcome is the training and discipline of the pilot. Back in the Korean war, all statistics said that the Mig 15 was to be superior to the F86, yet the F86 ruled the skies.
The F35 project has a lot against it. Engineers are trying to make one aircraft do too much and at the end we will end up with a jet fighter that is mediocre or good at everything but not great in one single aspect of the operating field. The F22 is perfect for air superiority and that is what it was designed for.
My understanding was the Mig-29 had them years ago, and the Su's got them more recently. Definitely they deployed them before we did.
The ability to "shoot across the circle" is a serious advantage if the opposition denies BVR missile shots with good EW and they merge. This has been done to our guys in war games against friendlies flying Russian hardware.
Nowhere does this article say what was going on in this simulation, such as airframe only performance, radar, EW, etc.
That may be true but the Russian pilots get less than a quarter of training as our US pilots. I wouldn’t bet too much on a seamingly superior aircraft with a bad pilot.
In ‘real’ combat simulations the F16 has been the only aircraft to ever score a kill against an F22 and that was a pack of F16’s against a couple of F22’s.
The Russians had them first, and we didn't know about them until the reunification of Germany.
Awaiting the A.A.Cunningham F/A-18 HUD shot showing a guns solution on an F-22 in 3..2..1...
It's a jack of all trades.
It can still outperform most of the competition, but for air superiority the Russian's best might be able to compete with it in that particular role.
The F-22 is by far the best air superiority fighter in the world, but it comes with a large price tag, and we have decided we don't want to share the technology and sell them even to our allies. The price per unit would drop if we would build more and sell them to others, but we'd also risk having the competition learn more about what makes the F-22 so superior and close the gap.
We could design a more economic second tier air superiority fighter, but it would undercut our efforts to build enough F-22s to maintain our necessary lead in air superiority, and with our goal of moving more towards unmanned vehicles it seems like an unreasonable detour and a waste of limited resources.
There does appear to be a need for such a plane, but politics would have made it impossible to make a more budget air superiority fighter and make the F-22 what it is.
When it rains, it pours. And usually when I'm AFK. Thanks for the assist, Vroom.
Click on pic for past Navair pings.
Post or FReepmail me if you wish to be enlisted in or discharged from the Navair Pinglist.
The only requirement for inclusion in the Navair Pinglist is an interest in Naval Aviation.
This is a medium to low volume pinglist.
Well from what I’ve seen, the F-35 by all rights should be trounced in a dogfight with a Su-30. That’s typically what happens when you have a air superiority fighter go up against a mud mover
The Su-30 has higher thrust.
Has a lower wing loading.
Has thrust vectoring, and canards.
And has a higher thrust to weight ratio.
Aircraft with low wing loadings tend to have superior sustained turn performance because they can generate more lift for a given quantity of engine thrust.
Now on the other hand, the F-15 has a lower wing loading, has a higher thrust to weight ratio, and a faster rate of climb than the Su-30 has.
The drawback for the F-15 is that it lacks thrust vectoring, and the canards which adds to slow speed manuvering during a dog fight.
The F-22 has an even lighter wing loading than the Su-30.
Here’s some numbers for comparison:
Su-30:
Wing Loading:_________82.3 ft/lb2
Thrust to Weight:_____1.0
Speed:________________2.0
Max take Off Weight:__76,060
Thrust (Afterburner):_55,120 w/ 2D thrust vectoring
Max g:________________?
Rate of Climb:________45,275 ft/min
F-35A:
Wing Loading:_________91.4 ft/lb2
Thrust to Weight:_____0.89 (100% fuel), 1.12 (50% fuel)
Speed:________________1.6+
Max take Off Weight:__60,000
Thrust (Afterburner):_40,000
Max g:________________9g
Rate of Climb:________classified
F-22A:
Wing Loading:_________66 ft/lb2
Thrust to Weight:_____1.09 (100% fuel), 1.26 (50% fuel)
Speed:________________2.42+ (Supercruise 1.5+)
Max take Off Weight:__83,500
Thrust (Afterburner):_70,000lbs w/ 2D thrust vectoring
Max g:________________-3.0/+9.0
Rate of Climb:________classified
F-15C/D/E:
Wing Loading:_________73.1 ft/lb2
Thrust to Weight:_____1.12 (P&W -220), 1.30 (P&W -229)
Speed:________________2.5+
Max take Off Weight:__68,000 (C/D), 81,000 (E)
Thrust (Afterburner):_50,000 (-220), 58,000 (-229)
Max g:________________9
Rate of Climb:________50,000+ ft/min
F-16C:
Wing Loading:_________88.3 ft/lb2
Thrust to Weight:_____0.898 (P&W F-100), 1.095 (GE F-110)
Speed:________________2.0
Max take Off Weight:__42,300
Thrust (Afterburner):_55,120
Max g:________________9
Rate of Climb:________50,000 ft/min
F/A-18 (C/D):
Wing Loading:_________93 ft/lb2
Thrust to Weight:_____0.95
Speed:________________1.8
Max take Off Weight:__51,550
Thrust (Afterburner):_35,500
Max g:________________9
Rate of Climb:________50,000 ft/min
E/F:
Wing Loading:_________92.8 ft/lb2
Thrust to Weight:_____0.93
Speed:________________1.8+
Max take Off Weight:__60,000
Thrust (Afterburner):_44,000
Max g:________________9
Rate of Climb:________50,000 ft/min
Dennis Jensen is a known idiot who likes to think himself a defence expert when in fact he knows less than nothing. He is also a close associate of Karlo Clopp - another infamous know nothing drongo who runs an air power website, has tried to sell Defence on upgrading the F-111 with Raptor engines and buying F-22.
Put no stock in this. These people know less about defence than 0bama.
“These people know less about defence than 0bama.”
Is that humanly possible?
“Stealth as a military advantage is dead... the Air Force is just the last people to admit it. We’ve now known for years that low frequency radar can beat our stealth measures... like special coatings and angled surfaces. All things being equal, a joint strike fighter would be toast against the newer Su-27 derivatives. The Navy was going to rely on helmet-mounted tracking systems to give their Super Hornets an advantage against Sukhois, but now the Russians are getting them too.”
Please cite some sources claiming *airborne* radar can detect stealth platforms. It is probably possible to detect stealth aircraft with ground-based radar - if the planes fly high enough that is. IIRC B-2 bombers are low-level penetrators.
The things that would provide a level playing field are daylight and/or good IR sensor technology. Oh, except for the lack of radar guided missiles guiding.
‘In bang for the buck terms, the horrible truth right now is that the latest Sukhois may be the best fighters in the world.”’
Amazing how people fail to learn from history. I remember when the MIG-25 was widely feared as an F-15 killer...
I expect the F-22 and F-35 lines will maintain a 20-1 or better kill ratio against manned opponents. It’s the unmanned fighters that I’d be concerned about.
Umm, I believe one of the reasons for the F-15’s design specs was that it should have been able to beat the Mig-25. The Mig entered service quiet a while before the F-15. I think the Egyptians got a handful of Mig-25s even before the USAF got their first F-15.
Of course we shouldn’t forget that the Egyptian Foxbat story ended with an Israeli Eagle downing one of them!!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.