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To: Dr. Eckleburg
lol. I didn't "change the question." I purposely wrote out the exact words of my earlier question

Lol, indeed, you must be joking.

Dr. E. (#381, top):  "Kosta, a question. Do you believe David was correct when he said he would see his son again, or was he wrong?"

To which I replied (but not to your satisfaction) "Forest Keeper left no doubt that this belief is a reasonable assumption, but not a fact. I couldn't agree more."(#382)

Dr. E. (#381, bottom): "So, Kosta, was David right to believe he would see his son again, or not? Or is this question above your pay grade?"

To which I replied "Funny you should even ask me this, as if it is on the level of your paygrade. Actually, it's above everyone's pay grade. But some people get delusional." (#382)

Dr. E. (#383) "Do you believe David was reunited with his son in heaven, or not?"

To which I replied "You are changing your question...I can't tell you if he was right or not. I have no access to God's saved list. To your altered question the answer is the same" (#384)

Now, if you can't see the difference in the way you worded your questions as being different (I even underlined the differences), I can't help you. In #381 you are asking me if I believe he would see his son again, then in the same post a little later you ask me to pass a judgment if David was right to believe (his belief, not mine)...Then in  #382 you are asking me if I believe David was reunited with his son.

I think even a child would recognize that these are not the same questions and that seeing and reuniting are not one and the same thing.

But I will answer this last question as well: I don't know. And neither do you. You may believe hope, fantasize, whatever) that he was reunited with his son, but as far as I know the Bible doesn't tell us.

But even if it did, it would still be up to an individual to either apriori believe or  not believe, which by itself doesn't make it true or false.

And please read for the umpteenth time, grace saves; not faith

If by Grace you mean mercy, I agree. No faith is needed for God to exert his mercy. No amount of faith, or self-delusion, or fasting, or kneeling, or praying, or  Bible reading will assure salvation.

If we are saved it is unmerited and it is a pure act of mercy, a pardon.

God tells us his method of saving His children is by His gift of grace through faith in Christ

 You mean †Paul tells us that ...

That leaves us still the question of infants and those adults whose minds are physically handicapped

No it doesn't. God is free to pardon whoever he pleases, and his reasons are revealed. Recognizing that God's pardon is an unmerited act of divine mercy (an in justice if you will), there are no special cases, or exceptions. It all falls under one and the same judgment.

And that judgment is not limited to those who have faith, who read the Bible, or who fast and receive communion. God's judgment is his prerogative if he saves us or not, and there is no condition that assures salvation, there is nothing that obliges God to save us.

for those who cannot hear the word of God salvation is still possible because God gave us the example of David's righteous belief that he would be reunited with his dead infant son.

Are you referring to

If so, there is nothing here that says this really did happen. It only expresses David's hope. In the way it's worded it is almost as if a lawyer wrote this! :)  Clearly, David will follow his son, because everyone dies, and no ordinary human came back from the dead as far as we know.

So, in a sense, this is an absolutely true statement: his son died and one day David will follow him, by dying himself. There is  nothing in it about reunification. It merely states what we all know, that we all join, those who passed before us, in the act of dying.

What David is quoted as saying is straight out of Genesis 37:35

Noting in any of this is about reunification.

So again, while I realize you admit you do not know if David was "right or not" to believe he would see his son again, what is your belief? Do you believe David is united with his son, or not? And what is the reason for your belief, one way or the other?

Here we go again! No I don't believe it because I don't know. Is it possible that he was reunited with his son? YES it is possible; with God everything is possible.

Again, by repeating this statement ["what I think is mere speculation"] so many times on FR you show yourself to be standing with all atheists who insist faith in Jesus Christ is "mere speculation."

 The pious Jews and Muslims believe it's a mere speculation and they are hardly atheists. Atheists would not even speculate since they deny God.

My idea of God is not like yours. I see things around me and above me and what we know of this world (cosmos) it is evident that something caused all this to exist. We call that something God, but we know very little about God except what human fancy painted through revelation tainted with human imagery, a God made in human image and for human purpose.

That doesn't make me an atheist.

Kosta: you haven't come (to) that realization yet

Dr. E: Thank God.

No, thank yourself.
 


395 posted on 09/04/2008 9:04:11 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
his reasons are revealed should read "his reasons are not revealed"
398 posted on 09/04/2008 11:29:24 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; Marysecretary; Quix; Gamecock; 1000 silverlings; Lord_Calvinus; ...
David will follow his son, by dying himself. There is  nothing in it about reunification. It merely states what we all know, that we all join, those who passed before us, in the act of dying.

That's not what the text says. The text says David believes he will "go to him (his son.)" Not "follow him" or "mind-meld with him."

"Go to him." As in "being with him; joining him; seeing him again."

As in "At Thanksgiving, we go to Grandma's house for turkey." We're not in the vacinity of Grandma's house. We're sitting down next to her at the table.

Frankly from your description it sounds like you're a Buddhist, believing in one giant Happy Face from which we all spring and to which we all return. Very Platonic of you.

The fact you introduce doubt into this clear passage is troubling. Not for me, but obviously for you.

Phrase the question anyway you choose (just don't rewrite the text) -- Do you believe or was David correct to believe or are any of us correct to believe the David would "go to" (see again, be reunited with) his son again?

Or is heaven just another myth?

427 posted on 09/06/2008 10:22:12 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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