Posted on 08/20/2008 7:12:04 AM PDT by T-Bird45
OSBI agents went to gun dealers and pawnshops to create a list of .40-caliber Glock owners.
WELEETKA (OK) — Authorities working to narrow their leads in the June 8 shooting deaths of two girls used old-fashioned legwork to come up with a list of area gun owners with .40-caliber pistols, one of two weapons used in the slayings.Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation agents knew the caliber of the guns used in the killings, so they merely checked with area gun dealers and pawnshops to determine who had bought or recently pawned .40-caliber Glocks.
"It's a typical procedure of any investigation" involving a gun, according to Jessica Brown, spokeswoman for the OSBI. That time-consuming procedure yielded the OSBI the names of more than 60 owners of .40-caliber guns in the Weleetka area.
Consequently, the OSBI sent letters to all those gun owners, asking them to voluntarily submit their weapons for test firings over the weekend at the Okfuskee County Courthouse at Okemah. About 40 of those gun owners showed up on Saturday and Sunday, and their weapons were fired once or twice and then returned to them.
The fired bullets and shell casings, meanwhile, were sent to a crime lab for analysis to determine if any of them match those used in the slayings of Skyla Jade Whitaker, 11, and Taylor Paschal-Placker, 13.
Brown said about five of the gun owners no longer owned the weapons, but they provided the names of the new owners. The other 15 or so gun owners who did not show up will be checked by the OSBI to see why they didn't volunteer for the test firings.
"They can have any number of reasons" for not volunteering, Brown said. "They could be against it, they could be anti-government, or they eventually may want to help." Because the test firing of the weapons is voluntary, Brown said there isn't any constitutional violations involved.
"It's a process of elimination," she said, noting that the tested weapons may have been loaned out by the owners or someone else may have had access to the guns.
On Monday, when the OSBI announced that it had test-fired weapons, it stated in its press release that it had sent letters to the "registered gun owners." That prompted concern Tuesday among many in the public, who noted that Oklahoma does not have a gun-registry law nor a central database of gun owners.
Tom Harris, an agent with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in Tulsa, confirmed that. According to Harris, most states, including Oklahoma, and the federal government do not have lists of registered gun owners.
He said the only way to get a listing of gun owners is by canvassing gun dealers or pawnshops individually to find out who bought weapons — as the OSBI did. Harris said gun dealers — "federal firearms licensees" — have to fill out ATF form 4473 whenever a weapon is purchased. The form lists the buyer, the address and other pertinent information.
They also have to contact the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) to determine whether the prospective buyer can legally purchase a weapon. Harris said the 4473 forms stay with the gun dealers and are not submitted to any government agency. They are, however, available to law enforcement. If a gun dealer goes out of business, the 4473 forms are stored in an ATF warehouse, he said.
Although the OSBI made public that a .40-caliber weapon was used in the slayings, it is not identifying the caliber of the other gun used. Brown would not say whether voluntary test firings would be held for the other weapon.
Authorities believe the killers are from the Weleetka area, given the remote location of the girls' slayings. They said the killers had to be familiar with the area — N. 3890 Road (County Line Road) north of Coleman Road, about four miles northeast of Weleetka.
Skyla was visiting Taylor at her home when they decided to go for a walk that Sunday afternoon. They walked north from Taylor's home along County Line Road to the Bad Creek bridge, a half-mile away.
Investigators said the two had made it to the bridge and were returning to Taylor's home when they were gunned down. Their bodies were found in a shallow roadside ditch, less than 1,000 feet from the Placker home. They were found about 30 minutes after they had left for the walk.
Autopsy reports on the girls showed they had been shot a total of 13 times. Skyla, the youngest, was shot eight times, and she suffered the most .40-caliber bullet wounds. Authorities noted that each of the girls was shot with two weapons. The medical examiner recovered spent bullets from their bodies and described them as small- and medium-sized.
So you would never worry if they came in and wanted to check all your Glocks? I have several, and I’d rather them need a warrant instead of harrassing people.
After all, if you didn’t do anything wrong, why not let them search your house anytime they want?
None of my weapons are on 4473s. They were all acquired through legal private transactions.
I'm convinced that America will eventually wind up as a police state, and it will be "For the Children".
"For the Children" is almost but not quite as offensive to me as "If it saves just one life, it's worthwhile."
And AFAIC, the police checking registrations on the weapon in question is just solid police work....might turn up someone who knew the family, who was in the area, etc etc. I'm shocked that this is even news.
HOWEVER...asking everyone to come in for a test firing is a massive waste of time and taxpayer dollars. Only a complete fool would show up, particularly with the murder weapon. Makes the police (who frankly sound like they're grasping at straws) look like they're doing something, that's all. But it's OK because it's "For the Children", and if "It stops just one more crime from occurring" it's worthwhile.
If only that mattered.
"Brown said about five of the gun owners no longer owned the weapons, but they provided the names of the new owners."
At best, the police goal is to look like they're "doing something". Suppose the police know that a particular criminal drove a green Chevy. If 90% of the green Chevrolets in an area were bought locally, and if the police harass 90% of the owners of locally-purchased green Chevrolets until they come up with alibis, then by liberaLogic, since the police have checked out 81% of the green Chevies, they're 81% of the way toward solving the case. Of course, even if the police tracked down 99% of Chevy owners and 99% of those had alibies that checked out, the police would be 98% through with the case, and yet no closer to actually solving it than before they began.
The request to come in does not violate your rights, it is the collection of gun owners’ information which is illegal; and compiling a list so you can suddenly become a “suspect” by not turning over your fiearm to some overzealous sheriff’s office. Because you may work in the area or hunt there, then all of a sudden, YOU are the killer, because your barrel scratch marks “sort of” match the bullet. LEO’s under pressure to solve cases sometimes rush to judgement- see Hatfill, Jewel, Ivins. Oh, and by the way, criminals rarely voluntarily walk a firearm into a police dept. and offer it for testing, so this is a ridiculus request that puts innocent people who don’t want to be falsely accused into the same group who refuse because they are criminals. What if the killer is a police officer and he uses YOUR gun in the next killing? Feel safer now?
What is wrong with you?
Alice was walking down the street when he saw a man searching in the grass near a streetlight. "What are you doing," she asked. "Looking for a ring I dropped," he replied. "How did you drop it out here?" The man pointed toward some nearby woods. "Actually, I dropped it somewhere in there, but it's too dark to see. The light here is much better."
If the police ask for someone's gun so they can test it, and the person didn't commit the crime, how is his letting them test his gun going to help them solve the case? The only way it would help them "solve" the case would be if ballistics testing yields a false positive. If one in 1,000 Glock 40's would match by coincidence, and 40 are selected at random, the police would have about a 4% chance of being able to convict someone without having to actually find the real killer. Not great odds, but considering that even one such "success" would be a great victory for gun-grabbers, it seems a pretty good strategy.
Or the police keep a couple of shell casings from your weapon. One "officially" and one "unofficially". Then when they get stuck on some future case, the "unofficial" shell casing mysteriously appears on the scene.
Unbelievable...
“Some crimes inflame the passions of people in a way that the LEOs are asked to solve the crime. An 11 year old and a 13 year old were executed on a remote road. They should be as thorough as possible in their investigation while not engaging in illegal searches or detentions of people. “
I own guns in .22, .223, .30, 30-06,.32, .380, 38 Special, .357 magnum, 9mm, .44, .50 and 12 gauge.
Are you advocating that the police visit me every time they have a gun crime? It sure sounds like it.
How much manpower is going to be spent going after the gun owners and testing their weapons?
What is the probability that the police will actually get any meaningful lead in this case as a result of that expenditure?
Going door to door and handing out leaflets with photos of the victims, asking people to call in if they saw anyone suspicious with them would not only be less intrusive--it would also be more likely to yield useful results.
***If all they are going to do is look at BMW owners then the investigation is shoddy.***
That’s exactly what they’re doing with the firearms owners.
What about having an certified independent testing firm do the test firing, make the ballistics comparison, and then return the firearm and the bullet to the owners if there is no match without making any permanent records? Would that satisfy all the interests in this case? I would suspect that the results of the police testing will instead find their way into some permanent federal database.
“In THIS case, they are in a tight spot, as projectile evidence from polygonally-rifled barrels is not reliable. I’d say they are far more interested in cartridge casings, as Glock ones are VERY specific to the individual firearm. Glocks have a characteristic impression that is particularly easy to match.”
Rectangular firing pins.
“HOWEVER...asking everyone to come in for a test firing is a massive waste of time and taxpayer dollars.”
And of course, after determining that the gun in question is not involved, the casings and bullets are simply discarded.
NOT
You are now a suspect in any crime involving a weapon of similar caliber.
That professor spoke really fast.
You are so right and you know it! Let's do nothing until the wacko shoots your children...
From the second sentence, I infer that there was a missing [sarcasm] tag around the first? If that was indeed your intention, would you kindly explain how investigating the 99% of cars that aren't involved in a crime, whose whereabouts police know, would help to locate the car which was involved in the crime, whose whereabouts the police don't know?
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