Posted on 08/20/2008 7:12:04 AM PDT by T-Bird45
OSBI agents went to gun dealers and pawnshops to create a list of .40-caliber Glock owners.
WELEETKA (OK) — Authorities working to narrow their leads in the June 8 shooting deaths of two girls used old-fashioned legwork to come up with a list of area gun owners with .40-caliber pistols, one of two weapons used in the slayings.Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation agents knew the caliber of the guns used in the killings, so they merely checked with area gun dealers and pawnshops to determine who had bought or recently pawned .40-caliber Glocks.
"It's a typical procedure of any investigation" involving a gun, according to Jessica Brown, spokeswoman for the OSBI. That time-consuming procedure yielded the OSBI the names of more than 60 owners of .40-caliber guns in the Weleetka area.
Consequently, the OSBI sent letters to all those gun owners, asking them to voluntarily submit their weapons for test firings over the weekend at the Okfuskee County Courthouse at Okemah. About 40 of those gun owners showed up on Saturday and Sunday, and their weapons were fired once or twice and then returned to them.
The fired bullets and shell casings, meanwhile, were sent to a crime lab for analysis to determine if any of them match those used in the slayings of Skyla Jade Whitaker, 11, and Taylor Paschal-Placker, 13.
Brown said about five of the gun owners no longer owned the weapons, but they provided the names of the new owners. The other 15 or so gun owners who did not show up will be checked by the OSBI to see why they didn't volunteer for the test firings.
"They can have any number of reasons" for not volunteering, Brown said. "They could be against it, they could be anti-government, or they eventually may want to help." Because the test firing of the weapons is voluntary, Brown said there isn't any constitutional violations involved.
"It's a process of elimination," she said, noting that the tested weapons may have been loaned out by the owners or someone else may have had access to the guns.
On Monday, when the OSBI announced that it had test-fired weapons, it stated in its press release that it had sent letters to the "registered gun owners." That prompted concern Tuesday among many in the public, who noted that Oklahoma does not have a gun-registry law nor a central database of gun owners.
Tom Harris, an agent with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in Tulsa, confirmed that. According to Harris, most states, including Oklahoma, and the federal government do not have lists of registered gun owners.
He said the only way to get a listing of gun owners is by canvassing gun dealers or pawnshops individually to find out who bought weapons — as the OSBI did. Harris said gun dealers — "federal firearms licensees" — have to fill out ATF form 4473 whenever a weapon is purchased. The form lists the buyer, the address and other pertinent information.
They also have to contact the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) to determine whether the prospective buyer can legally purchase a weapon. Harris said the 4473 forms stay with the gun dealers and are not submitted to any government agency. They are, however, available to law enforcement. If a gun dealer goes out of business, the 4473 forms are stored in an ATF warehouse, he said.
Although the OSBI made public that a .40-caliber weapon was used in the slayings, it is not identifying the caliber of the other gun used. Brown would not say whether voluntary test firings would be held for the other weapon.
Authorities believe the killers are from the Weleetka area, given the remote location of the girls' slayings. They said the killers had to be familiar with the area — N. 3890 Road (County Line Road) north of Coleman Road, about four miles northeast of Weleetka.
Skyla was visiting Taylor at her home when they decided to go for a walk that Sunday afternoon. They walked north from Taylor's home along County Line Road to the Bad Creek bridge, a half-mile away.
Investigators said the two had made it to the bridge and were returning to Taylor's home when they were gunned down. Their bodies were found in a shallow roadside ditch, less than 1,000 feet from the Placker home. They were found about 30 minutes after they had left for the walk.
Autopsy reports on the girls showed they had been shot a total of 13 times. Skyla, the youngest, was shot eight times, and she suffered the most .40-caliber bullet wounds. Authorities noted that each of the girls was shot with two weapons. The medical examiner recovered spent bullets from their bodies and described them as small- and medium-sized.
You don't qualify...
But I would qualify if I lived in that town and owned a .40 Glock?
To be investigated after simplying refusing a dubious test?
lol or DNA, either.
A wizard comes out from behind the curtains, takes the stand, and has incomprehensible charts and graphs and says, he did it because of these charts and graphs. If he’s convincing in his incomprehensible (to most people) chatter, the jury says, gosh, it’s proven that the DNA matches, that the lands and grooves of a stock Glock barrel are unique, etc.
In the Terry Nichols case, they proved to a jury that it was his Sears drillbit that opened the padlock at the quarry because only his bit could have left those marks on a Master padlock. There was enough other evidence, so this little gem was not pivotal.
A President Obama will go a long way towards satisfying your curiousity.
And that is precisely the problem. You don’t care if this person is guilty or innocent you just want to see action NOW. Whether the rules of evidence are followed ie the cops don’t fabricate evidence & custom tailor expert testimony like the FBI labs have done in the past or if a confession was given with the able assistance of an electric cattle prod in the crotch and that is what is truly scary.
Who said anyone right’s are being violated, save for the two executed citizens? Cops shouldn’t turn over every stone that they legally can in order to find out who violated the biggest violation of someone else’s rights?
But I’ll bet you are a really cheerleader for pro-life rights aren’t you.
Fully 75% of those contacted complied, either by letting the police test (and register, no doubt) their guns or by giving up whoever they'd sold them to.
That leaves a maximum of a 25% non-sheep population among this group - and these are gun owners! Probably a few more will fold when the police show up at their door "persuading" them to be good little subjects and "volunteer" for the tests.
If 75% of (a certain group of) gun owners in a red state let the government have their guns because they got a letter asking for them, I'm left with little hope for the population at large. Obama is seeming more likely than ever.
Dead children do not immediately deprive everyone else of their rights. The authorities are requiring gun owners to either, one, prove their innocence, or two, incriminate themselves.
Either way, the police are overstepping their bounds.
No, they are not. They are investigating a killing and trying to follow any angle. Maybe the murder weapon shows up? Maybe they can eliminate a host of suspects by asking people to come in and clear themselves? Maybe someone gives up some information that gets them somewhere?
How is someone’s rights being violated if they are asked to come in? If they don’t and the cops start kicking in doors or doing a bunch of illegal stuff then yes, there is a problem.
Who cares about the dead citizens though. They don’t need their rights any longer.
You don't see this as turning "innocent until proven guilty" on it's head? That asking them to self incriminate themselves doesn't violate a Constitutional precept?
They can ask, but those Citizens have a Right to tell them to get probable cause or go pound sand...
do they have to?
could this information be obtained from another source?
article says they got the 4473s from dealers, and they’re the only ones who are supposed to keep them. nobody’s mentioned yet WHY they gave them to the police.
warrant? fine. voluntary? boycott the shop.
Where do you draw the line? Go door to door taking DNA samples from everyone in the neighborhood? Just start breaking down doors and damn the constitution?
I can certainly see going to stores and getting lists of the appropriate owners, then cross referencing to see if some of them are likely suspects. Use that info to begin an investigation.
It's very unlikely that anyone would use a legally purchased weapon for this type of heinous crime. IMHO, the cops are heading down a blind alley because they have no other leads.
why?
because police are not the sharpest tools in the shed. They must think it is a local person and they were doing this to establish guilt by refusal to cooperate.
A policeman’s job is easy in a police state.
this is no differnet than a policeman saying either cooperate or we will use your failure to cooperate to get a warrant.
“The TV crime dramas like to make it look like it works, but it’s really just as subjective as polygraphs.
Basically, if your gun is ‘close’ then it’s your word against the ‘experts’ and you better have a rock solid alibi or you’re screwed.”
WRONG. the science of matching bullets and/or shell casings is far more solid than polygraphy. It has been subjected to peer-reviewed studies for decades. The “match” criteria are very specific and stringent. If they’re not met, it’s not a match, period. Someone who testified to a “match” that wasn’t, is putting their career, and possibly even their freedom at risk.
Oh, and BOTH sides get to bring their “experts” to court with them. There are plenty of defense firearm/toolmark examiners out there.
In THIS case, they are in a tight spot, as projectile evidence from polygonally-rifled barrels is not reliable. I’d say they are far more interested in cartridge casings, as Glock ones are VERY specific to the individual firearm. Glocks have a characteristic impression that is particularly easy to match.
If they were to ask me to come in and clear my gun the first person I call is my lawyer. I would urge anyone to do the same. But, their asking isn’t an issue for me.
While I can certainly see your point about the sheep factor here, I am not so sure about Obama being a foregone conclusion. I write that with the caveat that I am also not a McCain supporter.
I understand your position but I'm going to disagree with you here...
The larger picture is getting the wacko off the streets. It isn't about your gun ownership...
OK
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