Posted on 08/15/2008 7:26:30 AM PDT by chickadee
And those conflicts are especially pernicious when an attempt is made to either apply a group identity (in some instances) or extinguish a group identity (in other instances) by force of arms. There is literally nothing Georgia President Saakashvili could do or can do to make the Ossetians feel Georgian against their will and despite their pre-existing sense of identity. Nothing except bloodshed or centuries can accomplish that. One people cannot vote for another people to surrender their sense of self. Artificially invented imaginary lines on a geo-political map do not create identities--shared experience does--language, religion, geography, history. There's nothing especially moral or immoral about any of those aspects of the human condition. We all speak one language or another, we're all churched or un-churched to one degree or another, we all live someplace and we all situate ourselves in a history of one sort or another.I do not know why the Ossetians have the sense of identity they do, and I don't really care why. I just know that they do. Same for the Georgians, same for the Russians. Evidently, the Ossetians draw their sense of self in part in contradistinction to their neighboring Georgians (not, by the way, an especially unusual phenomena in human history). Thus, twice given the choice in plebiscites in the last 16 years, both times the South Ossetians voted overwhelming for separation from Georgia. They prefer Russia to Georgia. Again, don't ask me why, I don't know because I'm not Ossetian.
(Excerpt) Read more at jfxgillis.newsvine.com ...
Nah, you just parrot it as 'justification' for the Russian attack on Georgia.
He'll get backed up by the occasional Soviet apologist, too, don't worry.
You really need to read more. Georgia is our flight corridor from our bases in Europe to Afghanistan. It is also a corridor for Caspian oil to bypass Putin's control.
And do you really want Putin to have more uncontested petropower than the Saudis? Putin has already used oil as a weapon. It doesn't matter whether that oil is going to Europe or to us. It's about the power that uncontested control of the Caspian production would give Putin.
The answer to that is simple enough. North Ossetians and South Ossetians view themselves as Russians, not Georgians. South Ossetians were living under Georgian rule.
And then there is this:
###The U.S. accepts the borders of the U.S.S.R. that existed when the Roosevelt Administration recognized the Soviet government in 1933, 12 years after the de facto annexation of Georgia. The forcible incorporation of the Baltic republics came seven years later. Therefore the Bush Administration supports the Balts’ claim to independence but considers the Georgian issue a domestic affair of the U.S.S.R.###
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,973116,00.html>
I guess we recognize Russia’s right to settle its internal disputes except when we don’t?
[p.s. It is Bush 41 who is referred to in the above quote.]
Very insightful.
October 2006 - campaigning Russian journalist Anna Politkovskaya shot dead in Moscow
Sept 2006 - first deputy chairman of Russia's central bank Andrei Kozlov shot dead in Moscow
Oct 2005 - former bank head Alexander Slesarev gunned down near Moscow
July 2004 - US editor of Forbes’ Russian edition Paul Klebnikov shot dead in Moscow
Oct 2002 - Magadan governor Valentin Tsvetkov killed in Moscow
Nov 1998 - liberal MP Galina Starovoitova killed in St Petersburg
March 1995 - leading journalist Vladislav Listyev shot dead in Moscow
I don't know how much responsibility Putin bears for these types of things, but again it doesn't pass the smell test.
The author does have lousy taste in women, that’s for sure!!
Thanks for your thoughtful post. I think there is still a lot to learn for all of us about the past history of the region.
Wikipedia has this overview of the long history between Georgia and South Ossetia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian-Ossetian_conflict
The U. S. seems to have a large share in the responsibility for getting things to this point. It is our money and influence and “military advisors” in the region that have the Russians worried.
This sounds more like South Vietnam than the Sudetenland.
“The U. S. seems to have a large share in the responsibility for getting things to this point. It is our money and influence and “military advisors” in the region that have the Russians worried.”
LOL what a tool.
He’s also a raving moonbat and a fan of Code Pink.
Hardly surprising that he’s towing the Soviet line here.
How’d you come across that article, anyhow?
I recall it was snow that beat Napoleon and Hitler, not the Russian Army.
So you admit that the article you posted is a lie - Ossetians consider themselves Russians and don't really have any interest in self-determination or nationhood.
That was, you now admit, all a scam.
I guess we recognize Russia’s right to settle its internal disputes except when we don’t?
That quote from George H.W. Bush was made prior to Russia's recognition of Georgia as a sovereign nation and the USA's recognition of Georgia as a sovereign nation.
By definition, it is no longer an internal dispute.
Oh, what's that?
I can't hear what you're saying when Putin's glans is lodged in the back of your throat like that.
The “military advisors” might sound more provocative that it actually is. I think one of the head advisors was on the AEI panel. He said they were primarily training the Georgians for the war on terrorism. I think the Georgians only had some 16k full time troops. It wasn’t realistic for them to be training them for a manuever war with a major power. Even now we’re only sending in humanitarian aid to show the flag. I think we’re trying our best not to tweak the Russian’s noses, but they have to stop and get out, and letting these irregulars loose just makes people mad. I think the Bristish turned the Indians loose on the colonies during the revolution and lived to regret that too.
My take on it is: the way Russia sees it, their actions are exactly analogous to NATO in Kosovo. They may have a point.
No kidding. Perhaps for Putin's birthday, the Russian people will buy him a nice dacha at Berchtesgaden.
You know that, I know that, and the Russians know that. Which is why they're very paranoid about any attempt to diminish the effectiveness of their ICBM force. In the event of a conventional war against the US, they would have a choice between going nuclear or surrendering
Given the above, would a US president think it wise to push the Russians against the wall?
It seems like we and the Russians are getting closer to the edge
Actually, the Soviets and their hard-left allies in America think their actions are exactly analogous to our invasion of Iraq.
They don’t have any point. They’re born liars.
Is that so? They come right out of the womb talking about how important it is to cut back on CO2 emissions?
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