Want to drive Lefties nuts? Show them that Hitler borrowed the swastika from fellow USSR Socialists

Post Toasties

[Hoplite]

My research has indicated that these notes were designed and issued after the Czar resigned.

The website you took the image off of states the following:

Russian Provisional Government had been existing only for several months of 1917, but it printed and prepared a lot of new bank notes. And some of these notes had swastikas on them. Why did it happen? The fylfot was quite popular in Russia at that time, it ment freedom, luck and prosperity as some sources say. Also there is a hypothesis that swastikas appeared on bank notes because the Minister-Chairman of Provisional Government A. F. Kerensky was a mason. Below you can see several examples of such notes. The notes of 1000, 5000 and 10000 roubles denomination were printed by the Soviet government from the cliches prepeared by Provisional Government, their front side has no swastikas painted, only the back side has. source

Ergo, the only reason the swastika was on those notes was because the Bolsheviks hadn't had the opportunity to replace it with their preferred symbology yet.

With that said, this particular argument is about as valid as someone pointing out the use of Eagles by both the US and Nazis in an attempt to paint the former as 'fascist'.

[Post Toasties]

Both Kerensky and the Soviets that comprised the provisional government of the RSFSR (to be precise) at the time the banknotes with fylfots were indisputably socialists. That in itself is sufficient for the purposes of my posting.

The (incontrovertably socialist) Russian provisional government designed the banknotes with the fylfots represented. This is not seriously disputed. It may be unseriously disputed, I suppose.

The unique nature of the Socialist fylfot may be because socialism was regarded as an international movement, as Communism was later. But a socialist symbol it was, without question.

[Greysard]

To further prove the words on the Web site look at the 1,000 roubles note - it bears the year 1917 and has the same design, with the same swastika. Considering that the revolution of 1917 occured on 25 Oct. no one would be able to put together such complex plates within 2 months.

This site offers a very nice collection of Russian treasury notes, old and new.

[Post Toasties]

Ergo, the only reason the swastika was on those notes was because the Bolsheviks hadn't had the opportunity to replace it with their preferred symbology yet.

This is immaterial, besides being an after the fact detail, to my post. Lenin being a yet more demented LWer did not make the prior government any less socialist or any less Left Wing.

[Centurion2000]

C’mon, there is not much difference between National Socialists and Soviet Socialists. They are both socialists. They were both terribly nationalistic.

Actually they were opposites in that one respect.
Communists used the international solidarity movement to agitate for communist uprisings. Nazis appealed to nationalism.

That International vs National movement led to the left/right division in the fight for socialism.

[Impy]

Are you suggesting they love commies while hypocritically hating hitler!?!?!?!?

[Post Toasties]

Sorry. Czar Nicholas II resigned in March 1917, so there was plenty of time for the provisional government to design and distribute the fylfot banknotes starting in 1917. And that’s exactly what they did.

[ChiMark]

In London during the mid 1930’s many so-called elites thought that Nazism was chic, cool the

Brown shirts had rallies in Chicago before the war. National socialism had roots in America for sure.

These rallies ended once Hitler declared war on America.
But many were initially seduced by the messenger until
his real motives were realized.

[Centurion2000]

Back of Early Soviet 5000 ruble banknote featuring three crossed 'S for Socialism' Swastikas:

Not true. The Russian language does not use the latin letter S for anything. They use C to express the s sound.

CCCP in Cyrillic ---> SSSR in latin

[Greysard]

Both Kerensky and the Soviets that comprised the provisional government of the RSFSR (to be precise) at the time the banknotes with fylfots were indisputably socialists.

The provisional government was most definitely NOT comprised of any Soviets. As matter of fact, Soviets were a parallel power structure, with their own armed forces, and wanted nothing to do with Provisional government; that's why they finally overturned it.

But if there are doubts still, let's see what Provisional government actually did while it was in power:

It postponed the expected elections. Instead of ending Russia's involvement in World War I, it launched a new offensive against the German and Austro-Hungarian army in July 1917, thereby weakening its popularity among Russia's war-weary people. The Provisional Government was unable to make decisive policy decisions due to political factionalism and a breakdown of state structures.[5] This weakness led to a challenge from the right in the form of the Kornilov Affair, and then from the left, which organized the October Revolution

I don't see any socialism here, really, just a complete failure, equally despised by the right and the left. It's not even possible to attach any rational policy to this government, aside from the need to "do something."

[Post Toasties]

From Wikipedia: (Kerensky) was elected to the Fourth Duma in 1912 as a member of the Trudoviks, a moderate labour party who were associated with the Socialist Revolutionary Party. A brilliant orator and skilled parliamentary leader, he became a member of the Provisional Committee of the Duma as a Socialist Revolutionary and a leader of the socialist opposition to the regime of the ruling Tsar, Nicholas II.

When the February Revolution broke out in 1917, Kerensky was one of its most prominent leaders, and was elected vice-chairman of the Petrograd Soviet. He simultaneously became the first Minister of Justice in the newly-formed Provisional Government.

Sorry. You're wrong on both counts. Kerensky was a member of a Soviet AND a Socialist.

[Greysard]

there was plenty of time for the provisional government to design and distribute the fylfot banknotes starting in 1917

Yes, I agree - the money of 1917 was called "Kerenki", derived from the name of Kerensky. You can search on Google and some people sell the notes. Probably the note of 1918 that you posted is also from the same run.

[Post Toasties]

That makes at least three baseless objections that Greysard has thrown up in rapid succession. Is that LWer I’m smelling?

[Post Toasties]

Admin. PLease remove my prior post. It was uncalled for.

[Jabba the Nutt]

The Soviet coup took place in November 1918. I can't believe that within two months, they put out their own currency. It would take longer than that to design it, make the plates and print the notes.

You're probably right, the Soviets wouldn't use the two-headed eagle.

Russia's coat of arms

[milky]

I had always understood this to be so, as well, and that the hackenkreutz or broken cross (swastika) was composed of two crossed “Victory” (Sig) runes from Germanic Runic Tradition.

Funny that archaeological evidence of the swastika dates back to the Neolithic period, as well...

[agere_contra]

The Fascists differed from the socialists and state socialists in that the socialists demanded ownership of the means of production, whereas the Fascists only demanded control over the means of production.

Absolutely correct, and well said. Setting aside the racial and nationalistic overtones of German Facism, we see that:

Communists seek to own the means of production

Fascists seek to control the means of production

They are as different as chalk and ... chalk.

Von Mises has written impressively on what it was like for business owners under German Fascism. They had to tow the party line or face massive, punitive fines or imprisonment. In many ways they were like slaves. Those modern businesses who groan under an overburden of environmental legislation can sympathize with 1930's Germans.

[agere_contra]

By the way, I don't think anyone has thanked you for this simply tremendous post. This symbolic/iconographic identity of the USSR and the Nazis really, really kicks that "Right Wing Nazi" stuff to the kerb

[gridlock]

Swastikas are also a Buddhist symbol...

I don't think Jackie Onassis was a Nazi, either...

[bmwcyle]

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