Getting Out is Not Enough/ Education, We Must Redefine It!

We must be willing to redefine education. What education looks like now is an artificial construct. It was not created by people who knew or understood children or teens. It was created by bureaucrats and special interests who wanted to control children and teens.

I talked with a young lady the other day – 14-years-old – who loves horses and aims to own stables and teach riding, among other things. She’s been working with horses since she was five. She’s good enough now that she “breaks” new ones and retrains ones facing changes in the use they’re being put to. She knows her stuff.

Then there’s her other life – public school. She failed her end-of-year math exam by three points, so she’s going to summer school. She’ll have to pass the test to move on to the next grade. I’ve talked with her. She’s smart and highly competent – just not especially interested in algebra. She’s more accomplished than many adults (even ones who did pass algebra). But she has four more years of school to go, during which time she’ll have to pass endless tests and divert her efforts from what she knows she’ll devote her life to.

(snip) I get many calls a month from parents of teens who simply haven’t managed to fit into the school mold. They’re smart kids, often kids with serious interests they’re prevented from pursuing because so many adults in their lives are running them through the testing/counseling/therapy wringer.

In order to redefine education, we will have to engage in some self-liberation, for most of us have a very hard time letting go (I mean really letting go) of the idea that the state knows some secret about education that we don’t and that if we defy their model we just might be sorry.

That's your opinion, and I suppose we could have an entire thread devoted to whether or not you are correct, and whether or not most FReepers agree with you.

It's not only my opinion, it's the stated purpose of this forum, as I posted earlier.

In my state, school taxes tend to range between 50%-75% of the property taxes. I just checked, and your state (GA) ranks 31st highest in property taxes with an average around $2,500 per household. My state (NJ) ranks first with an average around $6,100 per household. Big difference there. I still think your property taxes are too high, too, but I probably wouldn't be complaining so much if we lived in GA.

Here's the source if you want to check my info.

But NJ is an NEA dream. It's the third highest in teacher salaries by state.

So is Tired of Taxes right? Should I go elsewhere since I don’t agree with her? She claims I’m a democrat troll (and verga)? She told me and verga to get with the program or go elsewhere.

I don’t give a damn how long you been here and I’ve been here little more than a year. Does that mean I have no right to post conservative opinions? So I’m supposed to agree with you even though you post emotional lunatic rantings ignoring facts?

You questioned me, insinuated I was a classroom aide (and a homo prior to that)like being an aide was less worthy in your opinion (and what is it that you do exactly? other than homeschool your kids and rant about how your kids are discriminated against) and told me and verga that we were democrat trolls and should go elsewhere.

When did you buy the site from Jim Robinson?

I’m so sorry you’re being bothered with this nonsense!

I never suggested that anyone was homosexual. I did a search on her screenname, thinking she might be posting on DU or KOS at the same time, but instead her screenname brought other things up... All I did was joke, “You might want to change your screenname. Seriously.” She’s really overreacting.

She’s a public school teacher who’s been arguing pro-public school on this thread. I said she’s on the wrong side of the issue, and she should go elsewhere.

She started out being obnoxious in her post 161. I responded in kind. Now she’s overreacting to everything.

If you peruse her posts, you’ll see that she’s been posting obnoxious junk all over this forum.

I've been here six years; you've each been here one and two respectively. Do us all a favor and either get with the program here or go somewhere else.

I've been here nine years; does that mean I get to be the decider? ;-)

Look, Tired of Taxes, your whining about how teachers don't treat black children correctly and that's one reason you won't put yours in public schools sounds as if you're playing the victim, yet you claim to be conservative and that you aren't raising your children to play the victim card. I suggest that you back away from the computer, take a few deep breaths, and try to look at the thread logically instead of emotionally.

No one here is against having choice - but some of us realize that the only real choice for some students (black, white, purple, green, pink, brown..) right now is the public school system, even though in many places it really needs improvement.

Tired of Taxes, maybe you should quit whining and get with the program. Being conservative is about being self-reliant and controlling your future and your destiny. It obviously upsets you to live in a state with the highest taxes in the nation, and in some sense you seem to be blaming the NEA and all of us who are public school teachers for your problem. Has someone chained you to New Jersey and forbidden you to move???

FGS, stop whining, move to a state with lower taxes, and quit blaming other people for your problems!

Amelia,

I don’t care how many years you have been here. You could be a sleeper troll, too. If someone posted pro-gun control on a pro-gun rights thread, FReepers would call that poster a troll. If someone posted anti-war messages on a support-the-troops thread, FReepers would call that person a troll. You post pro-public school, anti-school choice messages on this forum, and that’s all you post. You post nothing conservative that I can find.

Amelia, you’re trolling. You’ve been trolling here a long time.

Don’t try twisting the story to back up your teacher-friends here. I’m not whining about anything. The race card wasn’t played by me. I only responded to it. When Verga played the race card, I responded that we don’t put our children into school because we don’t want them taught that victim mentality. I said it was condescending. I said my children learn self-reliance.

Then, when they turned around and complained about entitlements to “the black community,” I pointed out their hypocrisy: They’re employed by the system, and they make money off that mentality.

You, Verga, and Twink keep running to the moderators to complain about the homeschoolers here. As the statement of purpose of this forum indicates, we homeschoolers are in line with the purpose of this forum. You are not.

Btw, we will be moving from New Jersey. That’s not the point. The point is: this state and others around it serve as the perfect example of what happens when the NEA dream is realized to its fullest extent: High spending, high taxes.

For the record, Amelia, I don’t care what you or any of the teachers here think. I’ve only been responding so that the Moderators will know the real story. I’m not going to let you and your buddies twist it. ;-)

Hey TOT~
Public school employee here..
Although I’m NOT a teacher..I’m support staff.
I’m a Technician.
My title is Transition Specialist (or coordinator) depending on which district is doing the naming.

I am VERY MUCH in support of homeschooling.

Very MUCH in support of school choice.

Very MUCH in support of competition.

I very MUCH think that there are MANY things in Public Ed. which are horrible and need to be drastically changed.
I am VERY MUCH against the NEA and the WEA (my state’s ed. union).
I have joined up with a group which has fought them (and won) all the way to the USSC.
(they backed the initial complaint..and brought much funding..the state AG brought the actual complaint to the USSC)

I will be glad to have conversation after conversation with you regarding the issues in public ed which need to be changed, done away with, ELIMINATED!

Most of us here (the public ed. folks) are on the same page.
This thread has gotten nasty.
It’s unfortunate.

:-)

Hope you’re having a good day.
Respectfully,

Mosby

FWIW, I don't think any of the teachers here are 'trolls' or 'sleeper trolls,' especially Amelia. I do think that many of us are frustrated with insults coming at us from every way we can think of, including those that we would like to have support from - our fellow conservatives.

I support any type of educational reform or change that betters the chances of kids to learn, be it vouchers, charters, home schooling, public, name it, and chances are strong I support it. Am I 'pro-public school'? No, but I am 'pro-choice' and for some of us, that includes public schools. The local public school was the best choice in my area for my girls. ToT, you tell me that the public schools are not the best choice for your children. As a fellow conservative, I trust your point of view, and respect your right to choose differently.

The problem as I see it comes down to funding. People who home school or who use private schools or who have no children resent the taxes they pay for others to be educated. I understand that frustration, and it is valid. Off the top of my head, I can think of several possible alternatives, but they are baseless until someone in a conservative community runs for office on changing the educational structure of that area. Or until an entire system implodes and something new rises from the ashes. But do remember that taxes are taken out of our paychecks to pay for a whole lot of programs, many of which are abhorrent to me personally. Look across the aisle at the democrats. They are furious that taxes come out of their salaries to pay for the military. Some have gone so far as to stop paying taxes until we are 'out of this illegal war.' If they continue this stance, real policemen with real guns with real bullets are going to show up at their door to confiscate their property. If they resist, they will be shot and possibly killed. Maybe this is the price of civilization that we are forced to contribute to the 'common good' whether we like it or not. It's something I'd like to think about and ponder before I really make up my mind about taxes, and schools, and the military, and the power of the government to tax.

As it stands right here and now though, public schools are required from a state constitutional point of view in all 50 states. As it stands right now, money from my paycheck, and everyone posting here comes out to pay for those schools. I have the right and the responsibility to demand that my money be well spent, and that as a teacher, I earn every penny honestly.

BTW, ToT you are correct, NJ is what happens when the NEA takes over. If for some reason I was forced to live in NJ, I don't think I could teach in a NJ school under some of the conditions I've read about. But I don't teach under the auspices of a union. In right to work states, the unions have little power. In at will states, such as NJ, the union has incredibly long arms and fingers in every little pie.

As far as the moderators are concerned, I'm not positive anyone has been 'running to them.' It seems that the educational threads have been getting a whole lot of extra attention lately from the mods and it has me wondering about a whole lot of things and if there are changes afoot.

I get that you don't care what we conservative teachers think. But I for one care very much what other conservatives think - especially those that see issues from another angle and share their opinions in a way that I perceive as respectful. I just ignore the rest. Certain posters here have taught me much about what it means to be a conservative by challenging my lack of logic and recommending books, essays, and websites. I expect I'll continue to learn for a very long time.

So now Amelia is a troll, too? I’m thinking you consider anyone with a different viewpoint than you, a troll.

You seemed to care how long some posters were here when you were whining about how long you have been here as opposed to how long verga and I were here. Now you don’t care how long Amelia has been here? Interesting.

Now if you’re ready to really discuss school choice, vouchers and such, I’m ready to discuss facts. Given your posts, you’re not really into facts, just personal slams.

Oh and the race card was played by you when you said that one of the reasons you homeschool is because of how your african-american children were treated in public schools. Read back. It’s very interesting.

You completely ignored the facts posted by Verga and continue to ignore what Amelia posts.

Hmmm...so Entitlements are the SAME as earning a paycheck? Interesting viewpoint you have there.

NJ sucks, I agree with you there. We won’t move until our youngest is out of high school. A great high school, btw, but guess you can’t or won’t see that. My family is here in NJ and Philly. I like being close to them as family is important.

Oh and again, as you said in the last paragraph of your post, you are only informing the mods so they know what’s going on. The real story or your version of it. If they bother to read, they got the whole story already. And you did whine to them way back. Keep up that back pedaling. Anyone with half a brain sees it.

“I was forced to live in NJ, I don’t think I could teach in a NJ school under some of the conditions I’ve read about”

I agree and share those concerns. However, some of the schools or school districts are like resorts. I have to say that the schools I’m familiar with here in NJ or the ones I teach in, are really like resorts and far different than the inner city philly schools I taught and attended.

A friend of mine, someone I worked with in philly and who now lives in another affluent area of NJ with kids in school, mentioned that all teachers in our little bubble districts should have to teach in some of our inner city schools. Maybe then they’d stop whining about how difficult their job is, if they had to teach in the inner cities first before coming to these resort like schools. As they have no idea what it’s like to teach in areas where the parents really don’t care and the students really don’t care. Forget about any back up from the Admin.

NJ sucks, no doubt about that but we’re also in the top 5 in the Nation when it comes to public schools so something is being done correctly. And I can attest to just how academically intense, intellectually exceptional our high school is and I dare anyone to refute that. Not all public schools suck and in fact very many are excellent.

I hate the teacher unions, NEA or the PFT/AFT from philly that I recall back then. Unions in gereral served a purpose back then and now they don’t. Now they’re just as corrupt as the system they were trying to change.

State colleges/universities, and community colleges also get funding from our taxes yet I don’t see too many objections to that here. I’ve read posts from homeschoolers who send their kids to Community Colleges and don’t seem to mind that those are also funded by taxes and are public institutions.

I care what conservatives think. I care what conservative teachers post and what conservative parents post in respect to their kids education. I’m looking for practical solutions to the problems with our education system and not some nonsense about anyone who attends or teaches in public school is some kind of drone.

People like Amelia and verga and you have posted some interesting and thought provoking links for those of us who bother to read them.

As for Catholic schools, and I attended k-12 Catholic and my kids attend k-8, they’re closing at record rates here. What some fail to realize is they’re closing because they’re not staffed by nuns and priests anymore so more funding is needed to pay for benefits and paychecks. Also, tuition is astronimical here (not sure in other areas). Our Diocese is trying to compete and provide a decent paycheck and benefits package to the teachers. Schools are closing or merging and becoming a part of a cluster parish district.

Approximately $700 per month of my husband’s paycheck goes to tuition for Catholic school for two kids (it was more when all 4 were there but the 4th went free). And that’s not including all the fees and mandatory fundraisers. It’s a choice we made, were able to make, to send them there. Not everyone has that option. I certainly couldn’t justify sending my kids to Catholic high school when it would cost at least $40,000 for just a high school education, at the minimum. Especially when the education was below that offered at the public high school.

I’m not worried what my kids will see or be exposed to in public school or in the world. They have the foundation and now it’s up to them to live it. I’m not worried what they see on TV as they know it’s just entertainment and not real life. I may not like what’s being shown but then again my parents weren’t too happy about the music I listened to or the shows on TV when I was a kid. Especially the music I listened to and continue to enjoy.

I’ve learned tons on here about many things and in particular education in other States. I appreciate the opinions and experience of all, especially posters like you and Amelia and Verga, and MOsby and bannie, A perfect lady,SoldierDad and so many others I can’t recall at the moment, etc.

Oh and the race card was played by you when you said that one of the reasons you homeschool is because of how your african-american children were treated in public schools.

To All:

This person is imagining things that aren't in my posts. I never said such a thing. My children never were in public school (with the exception of a brief stint by my eldest, and he never had that sort of trouble). Many of their friends are public school students. This poster has been misreading everything.

I've also never reported anyone here to the moderators, even though a few people on this thread have been taking cheap shots at me and posting foul-mouthed rants. They keep reporting me for responding. All I've done is (1) ask for one of my deleted posts to be reinstated, and (2) send a clarification to the Mod when this person complained about me.

I'm not going to bother posting directly to this person anymore. I am posting here to "All", just for the record, to continue to set the story straight.

To All:

The last post #376 illustrates my point further. Nowhere in those quotes did I say my children ever attended school. These teachers are reacting to things they're imagining in my posts.

The teachers who misunderstood my post could've asked for further clarification in a civil tone, but instead they chose to go on a rant, misinterpreting and misrepresenting my posts again and again.

Here's the entire quote. I was responding to the teacher who posted: "Almost 70% of African Americans come from single parent homes, who is going to teach them?"

My COMPLETE response was:

One of the reasons we homeschool is the condescending attitude toward African Americans in the school system. (Note: I'm not saying every teacher and administrator has it, but statements like the one above reflect the general attitude.) Outside the school system, my children have not been taught to see themselves as victims. Two are still very young, but the eldest at 12 has learned a self-reliance that will carry him through life. He is largely self-taught, and he always has excelled in his studies. An increasing number of black families are opting for home education, and their children are doing well.

In other words: WE DON'T NEED YOU.

Another Note to All:

I figured out what bothers them so much. They're unwilling to accept the idea that black families or black children don't need them. They need for them to need them. Their jobs depend upon that need.

Btw, notice that the first TEACHER used the term African American, too. I see nothing wrong with those types of terms. Note that I don't hyphenate them, either. Using those terms are far better than saying, for example, "I'm Polish," or "I'm Chinese," when you're an American who's never even been to Poland or China. It's far more patriotic to place an emphasis on the word "American". JMHO. Whenever people would ask what nationality I am, I would say, "American." When they would continue, "Oh, you know what I mean. What are you - German? Irish?" I always answered, "Italian American." I was always taught to include the word "American" in there.

I feel like one of those callers on radio shows “Long-time listener, first time caller” :-)

Just a few thoughts on education in America today:

1) The public school system is incredibly unlikely to ever disappear. It will change over the longterm because there are clearly plenty of public schools that are lousy. We live in DC, are expecting our first child in the fall and there is no way that we would ever send our kids to public school here. We would either have to move or send our kids to private school (which can cost as much as college, on top of the $10K a year we pay in property taxes). On the flip-side, Montgomery County in MD and Arlington, Alexandria and Fairfax counties in VA have some very good schools, including a couple, Thomas Jefferson and Behtesda-Chevy Chase that are as good as any private school in the area.

2) Vouchers haven’t gotten much traction around here- good schools raise property values in their respective communties. People in those communities aren’t too eager to let people from other areas enroll their kids in “their” schools. Vouchers may be attractive for younger couples just starting out who can’t afford homes in the best school districts, but they hold little benefit to those who have bought into the good school districts.

3) I’m a product of a public/private school in Canada, but I did spend one year at a very good public school in suburban Michigan. My wife attended public schools in suburban DC and got a very good education. I am the first to admit that some public schools are a disaster, especially in inner-city areas, and should be re-vamped from the ground up. But there are also plenty of very good public schools. The majority probably fall somewhere in the middle, which is to be expected of any large undertaking. Completely dissolving the public school system is attractive to only a few Americans, and would be like throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

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