Posted on 06/30/2008 1:02:53 PM PDT by sevenbak
The recent attacks from a number of sources on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) reek of the same prejudice that, in the past, we have often seen used against Jews, Catholics, Muslims, and many others. This kind of behavior needs to be identified and condemned for what it is: religious intolerance and blatant bigotry.
These attacks on the Mormon Church have come in three forms: preaching, publications, and video presentations. Honoring the freedom to speak and preach from the heart, the National Conference takes issue with using the pulpit, any pulpit, to promote misleading, distorted, false and/or bigoted views of any religious body. An example of such a distortion is the growing use and presentation of two videos: "The Godmakers" and "The Godmakers II". These videos, developed by an anti-Mormon group intent upon vilification and hatemongering, are designed to misstate, malign, and encourage the hatred of a well established group of Christian believers and they ought to be repudiated by all people of good will...
...As people of good will, we in the National Conference of Christians and Jews join with our national leaders in the condemnation of any attempt to use one's first amendment religious freedom as a smoke-screen behind which one might hide while engaged in actions which must rightly be named as religious bigotry.
(Excerpt) Read more at adherents.com ...
WOW, looks like little Walter Martin is quite the character.
Try googling Urim and Thummim in the Bible text. More properly translated as lights and perfections or revelation and truth. It was a stone (ephod) set in the breastplate of the High priest. God identifies it as a means of Revelation in Samuel. Joseph Smith's account of his use of the Urim and Thummim and your disparaging of it shows he believed "sola scripture" better than you do.
Any other Biblical Doctrines you feel like bashing just to try slander Joseph Smith?
Really?
Where is Walter Martin's take on the LDS inaccurate?
Are you not fond of inaccuracies? Do they bother you greatly?
Shall we compare inaccuracies? You bring up one of your alleged inaccuracies from Walter Martin and I will bring up two from Joseph Smith.
While I agree with your assessment of Micheal Moore's take on the US Healthcare system...I would compare it to Joseph Smith's Kinderhook plate translation, not Walter Martin's take on the LDS. As Smith's translation is a known fraud, I believe that my comparison would be a better fit than yours.
http://www.waltermartin.com/degree.html
To me, it is a good word used to describe the content of Micah 5:2, among other passages that refer to Jesus as being eternal.
The biblical fact that Jesus was from everlasting has no basis in Greek philosophy...just plain Scripture.
Evangelical churches have adopted the false Doctrine of Global Warming in an effort to answer the debates of the secularist of today. By adopting the enemies frame of reference they have already accedded defeat and tainted thier own Doctrinal purity.
Well...you and I agree there. But...we have been warned, via the New Testament, that there will be false teachers, among us, that introduce heresies, and false doctrines (doctrines of devils), in order to decieve people. As Christ's return gets closer, it will only get worse and, unfortunately, people are clamouring for these teachings that "tickle their ears", not the biblical ones that convict them of their sin.
Walter Martin holds four earned degrees and received his educsation at Stony Brook Schoolk, Adelphi University, his master’s degree from New York University and his doctoral degree from California Western University in the field of Comparative Religions.
He has authored a dozen full length books, appeared on many radio and television shows over many years. He has lectured in hundreds of colleges, seminaries, universities and churches throughout the United States, and eighteen foreign countries.
I have not seen where he claimed to be a descendant of Brigham Young, but I imagine many thousands could make that claim.
Wiki kinderhook plates.
The Kinderhook plates were a set of 6 small, bell-shaped pieces of brass with strange engravings discovered in 1843 in an Indian mound near Kinderhook, Illinois.
Designed to appear ancient, the plates were in fact a forgery created by three men (Bridge Whitten, Robert Wiley, and Wilburn Fugate) in Kinderhook who were hoping to trick Latter Day Saints (Mormons),
The forgers intentionally "discovered" the plates in the presence of a Latter-day Saint neighbor, who took them to the prophet and church founder, Joseph Smith, Jr. According to William Clayton's journal (Clayton was the personal secretary to Joseph Smith), Smith had begun to "translate" the writing on the plates.[citation needed] Upon learning of the plates, Smith sent for his "Hebrew Bible & Lexicon,"[1] suggesting that he was going to attempt to translate the plates by normal means, rather than by use of a seerstone or direct revelation.[2]
This is not a biblical doctrine and I did google it, as you suggested and got this in regard to claims that Joseph Smith used the Urim and Thummim to translate the Book of Mormon:
However, this scenario does not square with the testimony of those who were eyewitnesses to Joseph Smith dictating the Book of Mormon. These witnesses include all three of the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon (the same individuals whose testimony appears in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon), as well as Joseph Smith’s wife, Emma Hale Smith. They tell a similar story of Joseph dropping a magical seer stone into his hat, then burying his face in the hat and proceeding to dictate the Book of Mormon. Joseph claimed to see in the darkened hat the words he dictated. Several of the witnesses comment that the gold plates were sometimes not even in sight as Joseph dictated the Book of Mormon. This evidence of the actual Book of Mormon translation method has been discussed in at least six different scholarly articles and several books by Mormon historians over the past 30 years.2
Divination (div-i-nay-shun): "Discovery of what is hidden or obscure by supernatural or magic means." — Oxford English Dictionary
It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the LDS Church wishes to distance itself from the compelling evidence that Joseph Smith both discovered and produced the Book of Mormon in a context of magic/ divination/ clairvoyance. We encourage all members of the LDS Church and others who are interested in the LDS Church’s claims, to carefully review this important evidence. Here is the eyewitness testimony to Joseph Smith's dictation procedure, followed by some brief observations and conclusions.
Emma Hale Smith, Joseph's wife, was the first person to serve as his scribe. Here is her testimony as recounted to her son Joseph Smith III:
"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."3
David Whitmer was one of the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon. The majority of the translation work took place in the Whitmer home.
"I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man." 4
"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation .... He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation"5
Martin Harris, also one of the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon, provided this information to his friend Edward Stevenson, who would later become part of the LDS First Council of Seventy.
"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say "Written," and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."6
Oliver Cowdery was Joseph's principal scribe for the Book of Mormon, and another of the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon.
"These were days never to be forgotten — to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated, with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, 'Interpreters,' the history, or record, called 'The book of Mormon." (spelling and emphasis preserved from original)7
*******As described later in this article, Cowdery's use here of the terms "Urim and Thummim" was a common designation among Mormons after 1833 FOR JOSEPH'S SEER STONE.******* (emphasis mine)
Other Eyewitness Testimony
The testimonies of Emma Smith, Whitmer, Harris and Cowdery are corroborated by other eyewitnesses.
Isaac Hale, the father of Emma Hale Smith, stated in an 1834 affidavit: "The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with a stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods."8
The first-hand account of Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, was published in an 1879 article in the RLDS publication Saint's Herald: "When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes — Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."9
Joseph Knight, Sr., an early member of the Church and a close friend of Joseph Smith, wrote the following in a document on file in the LDS Church archives: "Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and darkened his eyes then he would take a sentance and it would appear in brite roman letters then he would tell the writer and he would write it then that would go away the next sentence would come and so on. But if it was not spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated." (spelling preserved from original)10
Joseph Used a Magic "Seer Stone" Years Prior to Publication of the Book of Mormon
It has been well documented by Mormon historians that for a number of years before he produced the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith was heavily involved in various magic-occultic practices, including the use of a magic "seer stone" or "peep stone."11 Perhaps the most complete account of this evidence is given by former Brigham Young University history professor D. Michael Quinn in his book Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, revised ed. (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1988). Indeed, in 1826, four years before the publication of the Book of Mormon, Joseph was arrested, jailed, and examined in court in Bainbridge, New York on the charge of being "a disorderly person and an impostor" in connection with his use of a peep stone to search for buried treasure. While the evidence indicates he was found guilty of this charge, the young Joseph was apparently released on the condition that he leave the area.12 Prior to the 1971 discovery of the original court record of these charges, Mormon apologist Hugh Nibley, of Brigham Young University, wrote that "if this court record is authentic, it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith."13 This court examination (now proven) is indeed damning and most unseemly: For it means that Joseph Smith was engaged in fraudulent money-digging with the same magic "seer stone" method in 1826 — the very time period in which, according to his First Vision story, Joseph was receiving yearly visits from Moroni (1823-1827)...
http://www.irr.org/mit/divination.html
YES...PEEP STONE!
Regardless of Walter Martin's Dr. degree, which you find unacceptable because he made an inaccurate claim,...
What about Joseph Smith's inaccuracies, including the Kinderhook plate translation?
Joseph’s private secretary William Clayton, recorded the following journal entry for May 1, 1843:
I have seen 6 brass plates which were found in Adams County ... President Joseph has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found & he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven & earth (An Intimate Chronicle: The Journals of William Clayton, ed. George D. Smith, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1991, p. 100; emphasis added).
The plates were a trick to prove Smith a fraud, which he obliged, and did not contain any history, especially the history of descendant of Ham.
Why did you leave this part of the history out?
I should have said that you allege that Martin made an inaccurate claim. He has a doctorate...just not from an institution that you find acceptable.
Is it really reasonable to say that Martin was lying about his degree?
Joseph Smith used those words in 1823 before Cowdery even met him. And like most Christians of his day he was familiar withthe term since childhood since most Americans back then read teh Bible regularly (including the OT)
What is interesting is that Joseph Smith's view and use of the seer stones (urim and thummim) matches the early Christian Father's view than the modern "Orthodox" ideas about them.
1 Sam. 9: 9 Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.; Ex. 25: 7. 7 Onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate; Lev. 8: 8 (7-9). 8 And he put the breastplate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the Urim and the Thummim.; Ex. 28: 30. 30 ¶ And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron’s heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually. ; Num. 27: 21 ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim. ; Deut. 33: 8 Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one. ;Ezra 2: 63 (Neh. 7: 65) stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim. ;Rev. 2: 17 white stone, and in the stone a new name.
Jospehus discusses the seer stone (urim and thumim) shining as a light. Zohar discusses the urim and thummimm and use of letters in revelation. The sin of Achan (Joshua 7) was discovered by the dimming of the revelatory stone. 1 Samuel 23:6–13 David calls for the ephod to help obtain an answer from God. The Targum Yerushalmi decscribes the mechanism of God's answer to David as he raised the light of certain letters in the stone. Isaiah Pesher (ancient copy of Isaiah from the dead sea scrolls) also discuss how the stones glowed for revelatory purposes.
Epiphanius (De Duodecim Gemmis), St. Augustine (Questions on Exodus 117) and John Chrysostom (Against the Jews, homily 6) all discuss the revelatory nature of the urim and thummim (seer stone) and revelatory light that shone and dimmed as well.
http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=148
He called himself a Doctor in 1966 a decade before he bought his degree. Even if said degree was legitimate (which a court said it was not and charged the univ. with being a degre mill). He still lied for 10 years about it before buying his degree.
Try googling the BY reference as more evidence of his lying and well chat some more.
Classical anti-anti apolgetic - if you cannot refute the evidence and presentation, try to smear the messenger. Notice that they exempt smith from similar critique.
I referenced the source material link which can harldy be said leaving it out. It is good you have learned to point and click as you still haven't been able to do so with google and the Walter Martins BY reference.
Clayton wrote the account in the first person but the account is not Joseph Smith's. IOW, it is not a primary but secondary source. I don;t disagree that the lying forgers presented the plates to Joseph Smith. What is interesting though is that Jospeh Smith did not use the urim and thummim in a revelatory capacity (in the manner desrbied by St. Augustine, and John Crysostom) but grabbed a Hebrew dictionary when presented with the Kinderhook plates. IOW, he didn't take the bait and they couldn't prove his status as false prophet.
The lying tactics used by Martin, Decker and the Kinderhook forgers reminds me a bit of the Pharisees and Saducces trying to trap the Saints and condemn them.
Well its been fun but I gotta get back to Capitalism. Have at the last post.
I only pointed it out because your stated problem with Martin's innaccuracies, for some reason, do not extend to being troubled by Joseph Smith's inaccuracies.
Do inaccuracies bother you, or not?
The only biblical stories I remember about the Pharisees and Saducces trying to trap someone was the stories in which they tried to trap Jesus in a lie or contradiction.
Interestingly enough...Jesus was never trapped and He always "turned the table" back on them revealing that He was the Messiah.
The difference between Jesus's and Joseph Smith's encounters with the trappers, among the vast many...Joseph Smith got caught in the trap and was revealed a liar and a fraud...Jesus never got caught in the trap and was always revealed to be the Truth!
By eyewitness accounts, Joseph Smith used a seer stone to tranlate the book of Mormon. One of the eyewitnesses said that it was the same stone that Smith used to defraud people by treasure looking...You can call that stone whatever you want.
ROFLOL!!!
There are possibly over 100,000 descendants of Brigham Young. Sandra Tanner is one of them but Mormons deny that gives her credibility - - yet when Martin is not a descendant and only a blood relative it lessens his credibility in their eyes.
Anything to hold on to belief will do, especially attacking the credibility of one who points out the true history of Mormonism. It is one of Mormonisms biggest weakness, this tendency to “attack the messenger.”
I don't doubt it....
If I had umpteen wives....I could someday have that many too.
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