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To: El Cid
I've read the objections - I just don't understand them.

The objections are now from the creationists themselves since they've been hammered on it so many times they don't want to look bad anymore.

Just because a system is 'open' doesn't negate the underlying principles of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

Here's a bunch of info to digest: Entropy even in a closed system does not necessarily mean "disorder" or "degrade" as would be perceived by the average person, as sometimes increased entropy looks like more order. The 2nd Law also only works on macroscopic systems, not microscopic ones. Entropy does increase in the system if you're looking at the solar system. The sun provides energy for complex processes to occur, such as the hydrological cycle, which aren't just "breaking down." And last, creationists (used to) take what can only truly be expressed with mathematical equations and put words to it that fit what they want it to mean.

326 posted on 06/28/2008 9:43:16 PM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: antiRepublicrat
...Here's a bunch of info to digest: Entropy even in a closed system does not necessarily mean "disorder" or "degrade" as would be perceived by the average person, as sometimes increased entropy looks like more order.

Sure, the 2nd Law states that there is a 'universal tendency to the dissipation of mechanical energy'. This can include the ordering of crystals/atomic structures into a stable ordered lattice (particularly at cold temperatures) - less usable for mechanical energy (e.g., more energy will have to be put into the system to get useful energy out of it); or it can mean more randomization of the material (which is typically what is inferred when one talks of 'an increase in entropy' -- but you are correct, in some cases an 'increase in entropy' can also mean an increase in order).

The 2nd Law also only works on macroscopic systems, not microscopic ones.

Why (depends what you mean by 'microscopic'. If you are talking about on the atomic level - where quantum effects can govern the observations - I'll concede that point)?

Entropy does increase in the system if you're looking at the solar system. The sun provides energy for complex processes to occur, such as the hydrological cycle, which aren't just "breaking down."

I think you meant 'Entropy does decrease' - not increase. I.e., the material exposed to the sunlight has become more 'complex' ... I'm not sure if I follow this one. Sure, sunlight evaporates water. It condenses into clouds, and then recirculates as rain... I don't see the decrease in entropy in this system (energy from the Sun causes water to evaporate on earth ... etc).

And last, creationists (used to) take what can only truly be expressed with mathematical equations and put words to it that fit what they want it to mean.

I don't understand this point...

327 posted on 06/28/2008 10:18:10 PM PDT by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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