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To: antiRepublicrat
...Here's a bunch of info to digest: Entropy even in a closed system does not necessarily mean "disorder" or "degrade" as would be perceived by the average person, as sometimes increased entropy looks like more order.

Sure, the 2nd Law states that there is a 'universal tendency to the dissipation of mechanical energy'. This can include the ordering of crystals/atomic structures into a stable ordered lattice (particularly at cold temperatures) - less usable for mechanical energy (e.g., more energy will have to be put into the system to get useful energy out of it); or it can mean more randomization of the material (which is typically what is inferred when one talks of 'an increase in entropy' -- but you are correct, in some cases an 'increase in entropy' can also mean an increase in order).

The 2nd Law also only works on macroscopic systems, not microscopic ones.

Why (depends what you mean by 'microscopic'. If you are talking about on the atomic level - where quantum effects can govern the observations - I'll concede that point)?

Entropy does increase in the system if you're looking at the solar system. The sun provides energy for complex processes to occur, such as the hydrological cycle, which aren't just "breaking down."

I think you meant 'Entropy does decrease' - not increase. I.e., the material exposed to the sunlight has become more 'complex' ... I'm not sure if I follow this one. Sure, sunlight evaporates water. It condenses into clouds, and then recirculates as rain... I don't see the decrease in entropy in this system (energy from the Sun causes water to evaporate on earth ... etc).

And last, creationists (used to) take what can only truly be expressed with mathematical equations and put words to it that fit what they want it to mean.

I don't understand this point...

327 posted on 06/28/2008 10:18:10 PM PDT by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: El Cid
Sure, the 2nd Law states that there is a 'universal tendency to the dissipation of mechanical energy'.

That's one way to state it. There are many more.

but you are correct, in some cases an 'increase in entropy' can also mean an increase in order

But it didn't cause an increase in in order, as by definition order decreased. We only appreciate a lattice as order, beauty in the eye of the beholder and such.

For it not working at the molecular level, I don't know why. A lot of our regular physical laws don't apply at various microscopic sizes. Quantum physics tries to explain things down there, and Quantum physics makes your brain hurt.

I think you meant 'Entropy does decrease' - not increase. I.e., the material exposed to the sunlight has become more 'complex'

No, it increases. The planets may experience decreases in entropy, but at the cost of vastly increased entropy in the Sun. The overall effect must be an increase in entropy in the system.

Sure, sunlight evaporates water. It condenses into clouds, and then recirculates as rain... I don't see the decrease in entropy in this system

Think of the hydrological cycle as a machine for moving water around. The 2nd Law states no machine can be 100% efficient, there must be some loss of heat, an increase in entropy. But the Sun provides so much heat that doesn't really matter.

I don't understand this point...

The 2nd Law is a bunch of equations used by engineers and physicists to get their jobs done. Those are the correct definitions of the 2nd Law for their application. What we say in English is just a loose translation of what the equations accomplish. I know such translations aren't really correct because I've been with mathematicians talking together and it all goes right over my head. When I ask, I can see the gears shifting as they try to slow down and translate it to dummy so I can understand (and I'm pretty good at math), but I can't completely understand because I don't know the math at that level.

If you value your sanity and don't like Tylenol, stay away from math PhDs and quantum physicists.

346 posted on 06/29/2008 9:30:08 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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