Report Finds Little Gain From Vouchers

The Washington Post ^ | June 17, 2008 | Maria Glod and Bill Turque

[Amelia]

Students in the D.C. school voucher program, the first federal initiative to spend taxpayer dollars on private school tuition, generally did no better on reading and math tests after two years than public school peers, a U.S. Education Department report said yesterday.

The findings mirror those in previous studies of the D.C. Opportunity Scholarship Program...

[LightBeam]

Okay, I understand what you're saying, but how do you educate the children of those taxpayers who have no money to begin with without some sort of "wealth distribution measure"?

You don't. Theres nothing in the constitution about providing education for the poor or anyone else. Hell, the poor kids of this country would probably be better off without public education teaching them about evolution, atheism and homosexuality.

Sometimes less "education" can be a good thing.

[Amelia]

You don't. Theres nothing in the constitution about providing education for the poor or anyone else.

There isn't in the federal Constitution, but there is in most state constitutions.

[Amelia]

Catholic schools across the country are at that limit. The local Catholic school district just cut a handful of teachers for financial reasons. If they can’t turn this around soon, they’ll close their doors for good.

Not having enough priests and nuns to staff the schools has really hurt Catholic schools. I don't know what the answer is...even the influx of voucher money hasn't saved all the schools in D.C.

We aren't Catholic, but if there had been a Catholic school within a decent driving distance when my children were small, that's where they would have gone.

[SoftballMominVA]

Hell, the poor kids of this country would probably be better off without public education teaching them about evolution, atheism and homosexuality.

But would the country be better off with millions of feral children growing up without the ability to read, write, and do math? And please don't give me a line about how it's happening now. There are districts that do a very poor job, but the overwhelming majority of kids do have a basic education and many have an excellent education. It goes without saying that many schools can do a MUCH better job and some teachers are worthless and should be behind bars rather than a desk, but I believe they are the minority

Please remember that these children growing up illiterate and innumerate still carry the right to vote. And the dumber people are, the easier they are to sway with 'bread and circuses.' So it makes me wonder if the people here on FR calling for the destruction of public schools and claiming it would be better to grow up that way are simply shills for DU and the Democrat party trying to destroy the one thing in this country that does help the poor.

[LightBeam]

So it makes me wonder if the people here on FR calling for the destruction of public schools and claiming it would be better to grow up that way are simply shills for DU and the Democrat party trying to destroy the one thing in this country that does help the poor

I don't believe I'm reading this. I'm the one who is against an unconstitutional, socialistic and secular educational system, but that makes me a "shill for DU"? Surely you jest.

Listen, for the first 150 years of this country's history, we had virtually no public education but we managed to become the most powerful nation on Earth. Why? Because we had God's hand of protection on us. That matters more than "education". Most people back then only read enough to read the Bible and that was good enough for them. The uncomfortable truth is, most people dont need to read or do math or things like that.

Knowing the Bible, going to Church and working hard in life (for men), and keeping a good home (for women) should be good enough for everyone. If people want to be educated as a doctor or lawyer, they can pay for their own education. Theres no reason why we need to pay enormous taxes so that kids can go learn about evolution and gay sex when they should be in Church, helping out the family business or on the farm.

Yes, I know my viewpoint isn't in the majority, but I don't care. I don't live my life according to the World's standards.

[SoftballMominVA]

Sorry that you took the "you" to be a personal "you" and not a universal "you." I apologize that I wasn't clearer.

But I disagree with your last statement (and I do mean you this time) One does need to read to be able to read the Bible. And we have had public education for nearly 100 years, and yes we did have God's hand upon us, probably because the central idea of education was to be able to read the Bible.

We've gone way beyond those times now, and to step back into the days when men and women worked the fields would no longer place us as a world power, but as a developing country. So yes, we do need to educate the populace and not just for doctors and lawyers but for average everyday folks who can reason.

Millions of illiterates will only take us further into decline

[Amelia]

And we have had public education for nearly 100 years

We've had compulsory education is most states for nearly 100 years, but there was public education in the United States before it was even a sovereign nation, and most state constitutions say that a major function of the state government is public education.

SoftballMom, weren't you the one with the long list of Thomas Jefferson quotes on why public education was a necessity for a free society?

[SoftballMominVA]

Thomas Jefferson not only believed in compulsory public education, he believed that the expense should be shared by the community. Now, true, he did not say the FEDERAL government should pay for it, but thinking back, this was a time when the federal government was still figuring out how to get off the ground, so he may have never foreseen the monster we have now and the ability to simply take what it wants.

Not that we are in a better spot now. Maybe we would all be better to go to plows and horses and let the rest of the world go to hell in a handbasket - except I don't think the oceans are the protectors they once were

[grellis]

I'm not sure what you mean by "the end of the school." If you mean school closures, that has been done. Two schools in the diocese were closed, last year, that should have been closed years ago (one was a K-8 and had only 93 students total). The remainder of the schools are in pretty good shape, when you take into account that this is Michigan and families are leaving the state in teeming hordes.

A few of the remaining schools have difficulty in securing funding from parishoners; an equal number of schools are able to raise remarkable funding from parishoners. The parish-raised funds will now be distributed among the district schools. I know exactly how socialist that sounds, but this is all within one diocese--the parishes already share funding in a number of other areas.

[grellis]

Catholic schools pay for buses.

That's not always the case, which I was shocked to find out a few years ago. I live five miles from the county line; in the next county (Eaton, Michigan) all students have access to the public school buses, regardless of what school they attend--so long as the school and the family are in Eaton County.

There is a very strange enclave about forty miles northwest of where I live. Westphalia is a town in Clinton County; Pewamo, five miles a way, is in Ionia County. They have a consolidated school district which includes all of their public schools AND all of their private school (which are Catholic). Transportation is shared, high school sports are consolidated, they even have a shared high school yearbook and graduation. Just little farm communities that figured out how to do what's right for them. Academically, they are the highest achievers in all of mid-Michigan, even surpassing the very wealthy towns like Haslett and Okemos. I don't know how they have escaped the notice of the ACLU, but so far they're under the radar.

[Amelia]

Thomas Jefferson not only believed in compulsory public education, he believed that the expense should be shared by the community. Now, true, he did not say the FEDERAL government should pay for it, but thinking back, this was a time when the federal government was still figuring out how to get off the ground, so he may have never foreseen the monster we have now and the ability to simply take what it wants.

Jefferson probably did think it more of a state or local function, but he definitely believed that public education was necessary to maintain our system of government.

Since the beginning there's also been the idea that education could make up for deficiencies in parenting (even Jefferson makes some comments about the process of education discovering hidden "gold" in "the rabble") which seems to suit most people as long as (1) they aren't the parents judged deficient and/or (2) it doesn't take too much money to remediate the deficiencies.

[Amelia]

I've never heard of public school buses providing transportation for private school students, but as long as it's on the same general route, the parents of those students are paying taxes to provide those buses.

[RKBA Democrat]

“Okay, I understand what you’re saying, but how do you educate the children of those taxpayers who have no money to begin with without some sort of “wealth distribution measure?”

If the government schools didn’t exist, the poor would most likely be taken care of by charity. There are many models of private schools educating the poor. E.g. Catholic schools in the U.S. in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

I don’t rexpect the government schools to go away anytime soon, but given that the quality of education has become such an issue, I expect that fewer and fewer parents will put their children in them. Private schools and home education have become a status symbol.

[Amelia]

I don’t rexpect the government schools to go away anytime soon, but given that the quality of education has become such an issue, I expect that fewer and fewer parents will put their children in them. Private schools and home education have become a status symbol.

Maybe we do need to change our approach. A friend of mine was educated in Hong Kong, and says the schools there are ranked and require entrance exams. If you don't score well enough to attend even the lowest public schools, you have to go to a private school if you still want an education.