George W Bush meets Pope amid claims he might convert to Catholicism

Telegraph.co.uk ^ | 6/13/08 | Malcom Moore

[camerakid400]

George W Bush and Pope Benedict XVI have held an intimate meeting in Rome as rumours mounted in Italy that the president may follow in Tony Blair's footsteps and convert to Catholicism.

The two men spoke for half an hour in the 12th century Tower of St John, a private area in the Vatican gardens which is used by the pope for private reflection.

The usual protocol for heads-of-state is a meeting in the pope's library in the Apostolic Palace, but a spokesman for the Vatican said Benedict wanted to reward Mr Bush for the "warmth" of his reception at the White House earlier this year.

[silverleaf]

He’s not be the first Methodist to turn away from the pitiful leadership of the UMC and look for a Church led by someone like Pope Benedict, with backbone and unwavering moral principals.

[redgolum]

Paraguay.

[horse_doc]

Sorry, but the Roman church in particular has been strongly pro-Amnesty for decades

That's true. But at least their clegy isn't openly discussing sodomy as a job perk, like the Methodists are. And the Pope hasn't been calling Bush a war criminal, like the head to the Methodist church has.

That's why I called converting to Catholicism a step up.

[Churchillspirit]

What did I say that was incorrect?

The idea that a man can be married to a woman for 24 years - have three kids with her - then conveniently decide that he wasn't ready for the marriage and wants to marry someone else and wriggles out of the first marriage with an "annulment"

That is a crock!

By those standards 90% of all divorces could be termed annulments.

Kennedy got out of his marriage this way because the Kennedys have lots of money - a very persuasive factor in the Roman Catholic Church.

I have eleven sorry years to testify to that.

[Salvation]

I disagree. There have been several threads about it. His policies on life are all in line with Catholic Belief.

The belief that has been around for over 2000 years, and still the Gates of Hell have not prevailed against it.

The Catholic Church will welcome you with open arms, George and Laura.

[Salvation]

Guess you don’t follow the threads in the Religion Forum.

[Salvation]

**why do so many RCCs vote for the Democrats, the party of abortion?**

They are Catholics in Name Only and are basically excommunicating themselves from the Catholic Church when they do so. In other words, Catholics.............you MUST not vote for abortion and partial birth abortion suppoerter -- Obama!!!!

1:

CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2271  (618 bytes )  preview document matches 1 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2271.htm

97%

2:

CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2272  (580 bytes )  preview document matches 2 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2272.htm

96%

3:

CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2322  (290 bytes )  preview document matches 2 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a "criminal" practice (GS 27 § 3), URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2322.htm

96%

4:	CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2274  (554 bytes )  preview document matches gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent URL: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2274.htm

[Salvation]

**cause there’s no Catholic Church nearby?**

Are you familiar with the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington D.C.?

[Salvation]

Strange. I am a Catholic and I was able to follow the service in an Anglican Church with no trouble. Book of Common Prayer....remember?

Anyone can open it and follow what is happening. Just like a misallette in a Catholic Church.

[STARWISE]

This news would appear to have not made it to Harvard Medical School yet.My cardiologist,who’s a senior staff member at two of Harvard’s teaching hospitals,has never mentioned a word to me about magnesium.

~~~~

And that’s sad.

http://www.mgwater.com

[STARWISE]

I had never heard about this:

~~~~~

http://www.catholic.org/printer_friendly.php?id=9823&section=Cathcom

Prayer service at Catholic church precedes Bush convention speech - 9/3/2004

Catholic News Service

NEW YORK (CNS) — President George W. Bush, accompanied by members of his family and administration, attended a prayer service at Our Saviour Church in Manhattan the morning before his acceptance speech Sept. 2 at the Republican National Convention.

Father George W. Rutler, pastor of the church, said in a telephone interview afterward that the “private holy hour” was held at the request of the president.

He said he met with Bush privately before the service, and at his invitation was attending the closing session of the convention.

Among those joining the president at the service, the priest said, were first lady Laura Bush; the president’s parents, former President George H.W. and Barbara Bush; aides such as Condoleezza Rice and Karl Rove; members of the Cabinet and Congress; New York Gov. George E. Pataki and New York City Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg.

Father Rutler said he gave the homily, and other parts of the service were led by a Protestant minister, a rabbi and an imam.

[Miss Didi]

I had never heard about this:

Me neither, Star...and I'm in Manhattan and I worked at the Convention.

[Miss Didi]

Happy Flag Day!

[sitetest]

Dear Churchillspirit,

Your post is self-contradicting.

First, you criticize the process of annulment for being too easy to obtain. Then, you say that what it takes to get a declaration of nullity is a lot of money.

It may be that, at least around the edges, obtaining declarations of nullity is too easy, although having known a few people who went through them, that didn't seem to be the case. However, relatively speaking, it doesn't take great gobs of money to obtain one. In my own archdiocese, the costs of going through the process, through the marriage tribunal, etc., run in the amounts of several hundred dollars, well under a thousand dollars. That's fairly typical of pretty much every diocese in the United States.

I've heard of cases, where a lot of testimony was required, or where the cases were particularly difficult or tangled, that have cost as much as a thousand dollars or even a little more than that. However, that is certainly within reach of nearly all American Catholics, not just folks with money like the Kennedys.

Ironically, the annulment process usually costs less, often far less, than the cost of the civil divorce that precedes it.

As to your 90% number, I don't know. I don't know what percentage of marriages might be termed sacramentally invalid (the only criterion, ultimately, for granting a declaration of nullity). However, my own back-of-the envelope calculations estimate that about only 5% of Catholic ultimately receive declarations of nullity.

In a society that fosters so much falsehood about love, sex, and marriage, it isn't tough for me to believe that 1 out of 20 marriages that initially seem sacramentally valid turn out not to be.

sitetest

[Churchillspirit]

Very interesting post. Thank you for stating your opinion so clearly.

Although it still seems to me that this "annulment" process is pure hypocrisy and just a way for Roman Catholics to free themselves of an unwanted partner without going against their church's teaching against divorce.

The loop hole of all loop holes!

[sitetest]

Dear Churchillspirit,

“Thank you for stating your opinion so clearly.”

Thank you for the compliment.

“Although it still seems to me that this ‘annulment’ process is pure hypocrisy and just a way for Roman Catholics to free themselves of an unwanted partner without going against their church's teaching against divorce.”

I think that it can be used as a loophole, and can be used in a hypocritical way, but all good things are subject to abuse, are they not? The reasoning behind the concept of annulment is that Jesus holds us to a very high standard (no divorce), but that God is not unfair in that the standard applied to marriage is for REAL marriages, not phony marriages.

You mentioned the fellow who is married for 20 years or so and has a passel of children. What if I told you that he got his girlfriend pregnant, and his prospective father-in-law took out the shotgun and said, “Boy, you're either going to have a wedding or funeral.” And so the young man, in fear for his life, married the young woman, and put up with 20 years of hell until the old man died, and the not-so-young-fellow saw his chances and said, “Hey, I'm getting out while the getting’s good.” And divorced his bride and sought an annulment.

I'll tell you that if he can reasonably demonstrate that he was coerced to marry his wife, he'll be granted a declaration of nullity. Why? Because marriage, in Catholic teaching, is both a covenant and a contract, and contracts entered into under duress are not generally considered binding.

Full, uncoerced, unclouded consent of the will is needed to marry sacramentally. Agreed to get married while drunk and [improbably] found a priest to marry you before you sobered up? Not valid.

There are a variety of other circumstances that nullify the validity of a marriage. Fraud is one (one marries someone and discovers some time later that the spouse is a homosexual, as an example).

Lack of proper intention is another. I had a brother-in-law who, though he said he was forsaking all others, never had any intention of giving up his myriad girlfriends when he married my sister-in-law. In that the Church doesn't teach that either polygamy or concubinage are morally acceptable, and the intention to practice one or both means that one has intended to enter into something other than a sacramental marriage (as sacramental marriages have as one attribute marital fidelity), my sister-in-law could have readily made the case that her erstwhile spouse never had an intention to enter into a sacramental marriage.

I'm sure that nearly any Kennedy could obtain a declaration of nullity on that ground alone.

Similarly, people who marry while rejecting other fundamental Catholic teachings about marriage may also fail to have married validly.

The question of maturity when marrying is a valid one, and marriage tribunals rightly should consider these cases. However, it is also likely true that some individuals and some tribunals abuse this cause and make declarations of nullity where objectively a truly valid marriage actually existed.

But like I said, many good things are often abused.

I will tell you that I've seen folks who wanted annulments who were not granted them, because they didn't have a real case.

So, although the process may be abused in some cases, it's not a “loophole.” It's a process based on a real need, to release people from obligations that don't come up to the standard of sacramental marriage.

sitetest

[A.A. Cunningham]

Would you be referring to the heavily abridged and edited version of the Bible that those outside of the faith use or the original which the Catholic Church uses?

[A.A. Cunningham]

How much money was wasted on your education?

intimate

Main Entry: 2in·ti·mate
Pronunciation: \ˈin-tə-mət\
Function: adjective
Etymology: alteration of obsolete intime, from Latin intimus
Date: 1632
1 a: intrinsic, essential b: belonging to or characterizing one's deepest nature
2: marked by very close association, contact, or familiarity
3 a: marked by a warm friendship developing through long association b: suggesting informal warmth or privacy
4: of a very personal or private nature
— in·ti·mate·ly adverb
— in·ti·mate·ness noun

[A.A. Cunningham]

What a crock!

However accurate, that is a far too charitable description of your original post.