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New revelations in attack on American spy ship
Chicago Tribune ^ | June 8, 2008 | John Crewdson

Posted on 06/07/2008 2:49:49 PM PDT by Jonah Johansen

Bryce Lockwood, Marine staff sergeant, Russian-language expert, recipient of the Silver Star for heroism, ordained Baptist minister, is shouting into the phone.

"I'm angry! I'm seething with anger! Forty years, and I'm seething with anger!"

Lockwood was aboard the USS Liberty, a super-secret spy ship on station in the eastern Mediterranean, when four Israeli fighter jets flew out of the afternoon sun to strafe and bomb the virtually defenseless vessel on June 8, 1967, the fourth day of what would become known as the Six-Day War..........

.....Their anger has been stoked by the declassification of government documents and the recollections of former military personnel, including some quoted in this article for the first time, which strengthen doubts about the U.S. National Security Agency's position that it never intercepted the communications of the attacking Israeli pilots -- communications, according to those who remember seeing them, that showed the Israelis knew they were attacking an American naval vessel.

(Excerpt) Read more at chicagotribune.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Israel; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 1967; 40years; 40yearsago; antisemitism; antizionists; attack; conspiracy; hatredofisrael; hatredofjews; holocaustdenial; israel; june81967; lbj; liberty; samefecesdiffday; usn; ussliberty
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
The ground control station ordered the aircraft to attack and sink the target and ensure they left no survivors

Devil's advocate. So since the order above was to sink the target and ensure no survivors, WHY WAS THE SHIP NOT SUNK? Planes, 5 torpedo boats, etc., etc., and it only LIMPED HOME?? What were Israeli's incompetent?

41 posted on 06/07/2008 4:34:26 PM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
No, the Liberty was a converted VICTORY ship. Bigger than a Liberty ship

The Israel back-to-the-wall arguement doesn't really hold water. By the time they attacked the Liberty the Israelis had broken the back of the Egyptian Army in the Siani

Every Egyptian that wasn't already a prisoner was running for the canal and, in most cases, not making it.

The Egyptian (and Jordanian, and Syrian) air force was destroyed on the first day

When the Liberty was attacked the Israelis had in effect already removed the threat to their national existance

They just goofed the execution of the attack on the Liberty. The planes did well enough. The torpedo boats were supposed to finish her off.

Most Liberty survivors accounts talk about 5 torpedos and one hit. There were probably six torpedos launched (two from each boat) with one malfunction on launch (it happens)four clean misses and one hit.

The Israeli boats were originally designed to carry four torpedos apiece but probably downloaded two to compensate for the top weight of the extra 20mm and 40mm cannons plus ammunition.

Why didn't they do a better job of finishing the Liberty off?

Embarrassingly for the Israelis, they were probably just out of ship killing munitions

Oops

But they tried to make up for it by strafing the decks and the first aid and firefighting parties, at close range, making slow runs to insure their gunners had as stable a platform as possible.

Such heros

God bless CAPT Mcgonagle and the crew of the Liberty. DON'T GIVE UP THE SHIP wasn't just a motto to them - they lived it.

It has always bothered me that we have never held Israel to account for this.

42 posted on 06/07/2008 4:34:39 PM PDT by Qatar-6
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To: All
Does anyone want to bring up Jonathon Pollard and we can get the two FR time-honored favorite anti-Israeli issues over with in one thread?

No chance, I've seen these threads go on for years and it's always the same.

43 posted on 06/07/2008 4:36:37 PM PDT by xJones
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To: Jonah Johansen

I have suspected that the U.S. was playing both sides against the middle, and the Is. found them out. Remember, they were democrats in charge at the time.


44 posted on 06/07/2008 4:50:41 PM PDT by Waco
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To: Jonah Johansen

Unrelated to the content, bur stretching an article over 9 pages for extra page views is a sign of how Internet media is getting more and more annoying and difficult to actually read.


45 posted on 06/07/2008 5:20:30 PM PDT by SlapHappyPappy
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To: panzer_grey
I am a big supporter of Israel, but anybody who doubts this was a deliberate attack by the IDF is sadly uninformed or simple minded.

Simple-minded #6961 reporting.
Although I will enjoy the usual suspects making all the facile conclusions to make Israel or the US or both to look like bumbling fools, I believe the facts are quite a bit more complex.

How many billions$ ayear were we giving Egypt then? How many do we give them annually today?

Without declassifying the truly embarrassing facts, no one can ever know if the US was passing on tactical data to the muslims. If that were the case, Israel was totally justified in attacking whomever was aiding the enemy (for whatever reason) during the intense fighting.

It's called survival.

46 posted on 06/07/2008 5:32:37 PM PDT by Publius6961 (You're Government, it's not your money, and you never have to show a profit.)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner

“The aircraft did confirm the identity of the target as American, by the American flag.”

No enemy ship would ever try to discourage attack by pretending to be the ship of an ally or neutral navy.


47 posted on 06/07/2008 5:34:10 PM PDT by PLMerite ("Unarmed, one can only flee from Evil. But Evil isn't overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper)
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To: Hacksaw
No, there isn't an excuse for Israel killing American sailors. They did it because they knew they could get away with it.

That is a totally asinine statement, unless you are able to explain why Israel would do so for no reason whatsoever.

"Being able to get away" with it only works in the muslim or banana-republic (Argentinian) mind...

48 posted on 06/07/2008 5:37:34 PM PDT by Publius6961 (You're Government, it's not your money, and you never have to show a profit.)
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To: genefromjersey
“I have no way of learning the truth of this matter,but have believed for some time this was a deliberate attack on a vessel that was reporting Israeli movements to the Russians,who were passing the info along to the Arabs.”

There are some folks that believe, the Soviets were intercepting the satellite links, and turning the info over to the Arabs....This incident occurred just about time that Walker was operational, and passing keys to the Soviets....the other theory, was that the WH was passing info to the Soviet Embassy....

49 posted on 06/07/2008 5:54:20 PM PDT by thinking
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To: Jonah Johansen; freema; Virginia Ridgerunner
Like VR has indicated. The full intercept text is probably sitting somewhere in a vault at Fort Meade and will never see the light of day.
The fact that it happened should not drive a wedge in Israeli American relations this far into the process. And surely it won't. Israel after all has served the US interest for the most part honorably for their sakes as well as our global interests. Let the bitter memories be buried in the deep. Let us remember those that day that perished, as serving their nation, and at the same time not forget the terrible times Israel had to face by so many that hate them because the first born was cast into the desert.
Mistakes are human. Forgiveness is of God.
50 posted on 06/07/2008 6:02:04 PM PDT by Marine_Uncle (Duncan Hunter was our best choice...)
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To: Jonah Johansen
Here is YOUR 'SAVIN'....http://www.nsa.gov/liberty/51668/3084841.pdf
 
Additional links inside.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1847390/posts
U.S.S. Liberty [NSA declassified more documents on 40th anniversary]
National Security Agency ^ | June 8, 2007 | NSA

http://www.nsa.gov/liberty/


51 posted on 06/07/2008 6:16:13 PM PDT by Wolverine (A Concerned Citizen)
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To: Publius6961
"Being able to get away" with it only works in the muslim or banana-republic (Argentinian) mind...

It also works with McNamara's mind, it would seem.

But I say that rendering no opinion on the attack itself. What utterly disgusts me is the statement attributed to McNamara, with equal disdain for LBJ unless McNamara was making it up as he went. Whether it was an accident or on purpose, calling back our rescue mission was inexcusable. Heck, even if we were ready to write off the USS Liberty, it wouldn't have hurt to take out the torpedo boats as a "don't ever let it happen again" message. That wouldn't have given away NSA's capabilities.

52 posted on 06/07/2008 6:23:56 PM PDT by NonValueAdded (I tried to explain that I meant it as a compliment, but that only appears to have made things worse.)
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To: Jonah Johansen

The Israelis responsible for the attack, if still living, should be tried before an appropriate court, and if convicted, punished appropriately. The incident still makes me very upset. I am particularly upset that the US did not support our ship and sailors with our available aircraft from the 6th Fleet and Italy.


53 posted on 06/07/2008 6:25:52 PM PDT by Citizen Tom Paine (Swift as the wind; Calmly majestic as a forest; Steady as the mountains.)
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To: PapaBear3625
The order that had several jets plus Israeli naval vessals to attack a ship flying the US flag had to come from MUCH higher on the IDF chain of command

You prefer to believe that the IAF intentionally attacked a vessel they knew to be American with the intent of sinking it/killing Americans?

Okay. For the moment, let's assume you're correct. Why would they do that?

54 posted on 06/07/2008 6:38:12 PM PDT by okie01 (THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA: Ignorance on Parade)
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To: Publius6961
That is a totally asinine statement, unless you are able to explain why Israel would do so for no reason whatsoever.

Okay, doofus, I'll spell it out from you. Israel, for whatever reason they attacked the ship, knew they could get away with it because they knew the US would never relatiate militarily against them. The fact that no retaliation happened shows they gambled correctly.

I've read no good excuse for the attack, and those trying to excuse it usually end up trying to flash the anti-semite card, which means even they know they can't justify it.

55 posted on 06/07/2008 7:13:27 PM PDT by Hacksaw (I support the San Fran tiger.)
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To: Qatar-6
I stand corrected...you're absolutely right, the Liberty was originally the 7,725-ton (light) civilian cargo vessel Simmons Victory (a mass-produced, standard-design Victory Ship, the follow-on series to the famous Liberty Ships which supplied the United Kingdom and Allied troops with cargo).

She was a tough ship, and I guess the Israelis really were scratching their heads as to why she just would not go down. McGonagle and her crew were real heroes that day.

56 posted on 06/07/2008 7:36:40 PM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("We must not forget that there is a war on and our troops are in the thick of it!"--Duncan Hunter)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner

So do I... and not only for this, but for his comments in his autobiography, where he stated that they KNEW going in that we could never actually WIN in Vietnam, but they decided to keep that from the President and go to war ANYWAY.

I equally loathe Henry Kissinger... for writing off over 2000 men missing in action, many of whom WERE YET ALIVE, just so he could get his nobel peace prize.

58,000-PLUS of my generation killed and scores of thousands more injured and maimed to NO LEGITIMATE PURPOSE. And a goodly number of them were killed because McNamara pushed that POS M-16 on us that kept jamming in the field and folks found dead after the battle, with their rifles apart, trying to clear jams. You BET I loathe the pair of them.


57 posted on 06/07/2008 7:52:21 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
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To: Waco

>Remember, they were democrats in charge at the time.<

You aren’t a dang Newbie. When in the hell are you going to learn that there isn’t an iota of difference between a Republican POLITICIAN and a Democrat POLITICIAN. If there was a difference, there would be no way they could keep a single secret from us people, the voters, for more than a couple of months.

Both Parties know what the outside game is and both Parties make the rules so that newcomers don’t get to see the inside game. How do you think that they can rig the score every time something important comes up.

Or are you someone who honestly thinks that the price of fuel isn’t being controlled by Congress and the Senate? Do you think Congress can’t change a few laws and make America totally uninviting to illegal aliens too? No, one Party is not in control while the other sits on the sidelines and wishes. It is all done with teamwork, hand in hand.


58 posted on 06/07/2008 7:59:49 PM PDT by B4Ranch (Having custody of a loaded weapon does not arm you. The skill to use the weapon is what arms a man.)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner

He is on the piss on his grave list around here.


59 posted on 06/07/2008 7:59:53 PM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (Will this thread be jacked by a Mormon?)
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To: dcwusmc
And a goodly number of them were killed because McNamara pushed that POS M-16 on us that kept jamming in the field and folks found dead after the battle, with their rifles apart, trying to clear jams.

Yep, we should've stayed with the .308 M-14, which was a damned fine rifle.

60 posted on 06/07/2008 8:05:54 PM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("We must not forget that there is a war on and our troops are in the thick of it!"--Duncan Hunter)
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