Lower Ethanol Mileage Means Biofuel Users Buy More Gas

Newhouse News ^ | 5/27/2008 | Gail Kinsey Hill

[MainFrame65]

==> “If I could buy E85 for $1.73, even I would be stockpiling it.” <==

Don’t even think about it! Ethanol is hygroscopic - it absorbs water from the air in large quantities, and is likely to go bad very quickly in storage.

[VeniVidiVici]

If everyone did this, the oil companies profits will be cut in half. Do people really think that they are going to let this happen? The less gas they sell, the higher they will raise the prices to keep the profit levels up

Even if true, that's quite an Amerocentric view you have there, junior.

The oil companies will be selling greater and greater amounts of oil and gas far into the coming decades thanks to only two short words: China and India.

[Free Vulcan]

I don’t think I need to, that’s kind of the whole point of the study I cited.

I posted the link to their report, you’re more than welcome to rip it apart.

[jsharpscs]

There are likely cases where ethanol will give better mileage. It depends on the vehicle. I doubt it’s enough to offset the additional cost though. Not the cost at the pump but the actual unsubsidized cost...

[thackney]

if you double your MPG....say from 10mpg to 20mpg, you will use less gas. If everyone did this, the oil companies profits will be cut in half. would be assured of continued use of petroleum and these alternative fuel ideas would just go away.

Yeah, I think they would do that.

[kempo]

What you don’t seem to understand is that while we are starting to use less gas by buy smaller cars and driving less the price will still go higher and higher but not for the reasons you are stating (greedy oil companies). The reason is we have a limited oil supply and we import 60% of it from foreign counties and the world consumption is increasing every day no matter if we use less. The only thing that can slow down the increase in price is to increase the supply by drilling for more oil in our own country. The “man made global warming “ crowd is blocking that through their friends in the U.S. congress. Your anger should be channeled to your government not the American oil companies who only control 10% of the world's oil supply.

[Old Professer]

Here is where the rubber meets the road:

“The EPA HWFET evaluates fuel consumption and hot-start and operating emissions. To
ensure maximum data accuracy, each ethanol blend-level evaluation was performed in triplicate.
For each vehicle, testing typically commenced at an ethanol blend level of 0%, after which blend
level was increased in 10% increments up to 70%, and then to 85%, for a total of up to nine
blend-level evaluations per vehicle. When one blend level was switched to the next, old fuel was
pumped from the tank, the tank flushed twice, new fuel was added, and the vehicle was roadtested
by driving the vehicle approximately 25 miles on both highway and city roads to ensure
that the vehicle computer acquired adequate data to “learn” the optimal air-to-fuel requirements
of the new fuel. Vehicle fuel trim data were monitored to ensure the fuel had been “learned.”
After the vehicle had “learned” the fuel, it was then tested on the Mustang dynamometer. The
vehicle was tested to see if the fuel injectors could supply adequate fuel under high-load
conditions. If the vehicle could not “learn” the new fuel, either in the road test or the Mustang
dynamometer test, as indicated by an engine fault code display, the ethanol blend level of the
fuel was reduced to 5% less to determine if the vehicle could “learn” a lesser ethanol blend-level
2
fuel. The highest ethanol blend level for each fuel was that on which the vehicle could operate
with no engine fault code display. The engine fault code is triggered because of the inability of
the fuel injector system to deliver sufficient fuel for normal operation of the engine. All four
vehicles operated on ethanol blendlevels of at least 45% without engine fault code display.
When a vehicle had successfully “learned” an ethanol blend level, it was then subjected to
a HWFET on the SuperFlow AC motor-driven chassis dynamometer to obtain highway fuel
economy and emission data. The highway fuel economy data were used to determine if there was
an optimum ethanol blend level at which the vehicle attained a better-than-calculated fuel
economy. The optimum ethanol blend level was determined by plotting the HWFET fuel
economy against the calculated economy. If several ethanol blend-level HWFET fuel economies
were higher than the calculated fuel economy, the one with the greatest difference was selected
as the optimum ethanol blend level for that vehicle.”

Apparently they taught the old computers new tricks.

Let’s see a show of hands, who drives his car on a dynamometer and who kills all his computer codes each time he fills his gas tank?

[Old Professer]

Sorry for the poor editing; I also forgot to mention that the vehicle in question is a Cub Cadet 46” riding lawn mower.

[Vinnie]

fuel mixtures with more ethanol than E10 but less than E85—can in some cases provide better fuel economy than regular unleaded gasoline, even in standard, non-flex-fuel vehicles.

That could mean 2 per 100,000. Pretty much meaningless.

“I applaud the American Coalition for Ethanol for taking action and studying the impact of intermediate blends of ethanol.

Conceivably weighted study? /s

My Honda (2005) manual states, 10% max. ethanol.

BTW, I have no problem designing an engine to run efficiently on ethanol. However IMHO the jury is still out on its benefits.

[Free Vulcan]

I don’t see much difference between that and jacking the car up and running it at 2000 RPM powering a boom box. Besides, isn’t the dynamometer how they compute all MPG?

Where they killed the computer codes? As I’m reading this they drove the cars on the road to see if they could learn the new fuel ratio. Enlighten me if I’m wrong.

[ltc8k6]

Those are not available to anyone, nor are they likely to be any time soon as far as I can see.

I suppose a person could blend their own.

As far as running E20-40 in a vehicle not built for it, who is going to honor the warranty?

My car’s manual says it can tolerate E10 and no more.

[Conan the Librarian]

I put 10%E in my 2005 Vue last week while on vacation in Florida. A few days later we drove home to Georgia. It was interstate driving all the way. I got 30+mpg out of that tank when I am only suppose to get 25mpg. I also drove about 68mph instead of 70 (actually I just set the cruise to keep the RPMs at about 1800).

It seems to work for me! YMMV.

[Spunky]

sionnsar, I heard on the TV last night about a Safeway station on the West Side of Washington that had slush gas or something like that anyway the customers didn’t even get out of the gas station before their cars quit on them. They were given their money back and a rental car. Have you seen an article on this?

[ChessExpert]

“If ethanol isn’t to blame for the larger mileage gap, then, what is? Stop-and-go driving, speeds exceeding 60 miles per hour, underinflated tires, faulty oxygen sensors and clogged fuel filters can affect gas mileage, sometimes significantly, government energy analysts said.”

Sounds like obfuscation to me. This argument only makes sense if behavior has changed. If in the past, people used gasoline, avoided stop and go driving, drove below 60 mph, drove on fully inflated tires, had fully effective oxygen sensors, and uncloqqed fuel filters; but now people use an ethanol blend, practice stop-and-go driving, drive at speeds exceeding 60 miles per hour, have underinflated tires, faulty oxygen sensors and clogged fuel filters - then this argument holds. But there is no reason to think that people’s behavior has changed. Stop making excuses. It’s the ethanol.

[madprof98]

I drive a Toyota Prius that constantly tells you how many miles per gallon you are getting. I can always tell when I get a ethanol blend in the tank because the mileage drops almost 10 mpg. It’s a nightmare.

[ChessExpert]

“The new study, cosponsored by the U.S. Department of Energy and the American Coalition for Ethanol (ACE)”

Well isn’t that cozy? Let’s not trust big tobacco or big oil, but big corn is just fine.

I don’t really have a problem with industry groups or lobbyists as long as their role is reasonably transparent. But I do have a problem with double-standards. I don’t think there is a problem here, or if we listened to “big oil” on a number of topics.

As to tobacco, my distant recollection is that many years ago the tobacco industry was in great legal jeopardy if they admitted additional risk from tobacco, So, of course, they did not. They might have been more forthright if the threatened punishment were not so severe. Now, as a result, the advice of (almost all) industry groups is heavily discounted.

[ChessExpert]

“The less gas they sell, the higher they will raise the prices to keep the profit levels up.”

That’s not the way it works. The less gas they sell, the more they will lower prices to stimulate purchases.

Prices go up with increased demand. Prices go down with reduced demand. That is standard economics and applies for all markets.

[ChessExpert]

“Spuhler said he has complained to state and federal officials but “it’s like talking to a brick wall.”

That’s socialism for you. I vote for individual freedom whenever I can. A lot of people in Portland OR vote for socialism (liberalsm). You asked for it, you got it. I hope you are happy now.

[sionnsar]

sionnsar, I heard on the TV last night about a Safeway station on the West Side of Washington that had slush gas or something like that anyway the customers didn’t even get out of the gas station before their cars quit on them. They were given their money back and a rental car. Have you seen an article on this?

No, I haven't. I take it that whatever happened to the cars, it was curable by replacing the fuel? (No mechanical damage?)

[Spunky]

It turns out the gas was mixed with water so I think they will have to do more than just replace the fuel.

Bad Gas