Posted on 05/23/2008 3:59:55 AM PDT by familyop
SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) A Texas appeals court said Thursday that the state had no right to take more than 400 children from a polygamist sect's ranch, a ruling that could unravel one of the biggest child-custody cases in U.S. history.
The Third Court of Appeals in Austin ruled that the state offered "legally and factually insufficient" grounds for the "extreme" measure of removing all children from the ranch, from babies to teenagers.
The state never provided evidence that the children were in any immediate danger, the only grounds in Texas law for taking children from their parents without court approval, the appeals court said.
It also failed to show evidence that more than five of the teenage girls were being sexually abused, and never alleged any sexual or physical abuse against the other children, the court said.
It was not immediately clear whether the children scattered across foster facilities statewide might soon be reunited with parents. The ruling gave Texas District Judge Barbara Walther 10 days to vacate her custody order, and the state could appeal.
FLDS spokesman Rod Parker said sect members feel validated, having argued from the beginning that they were being persecuted for their beliefs.
"They're very thrilled. They're looking forward to seeing the children returned," he said.
The appellate decision technically applies only to 38 of the roughly 200 parents who challenged the seizure. But their lawyer, Julie Balovich of Texas RioGrande Legal Aid, said she expected attorneys for all the other parents to seek to join the ruling.
"It's a great day for Texas justice. This was the right decision," said Balovich, who was joined by several smiling mothers who nonetheless declined to comment at a news conference outside the courthouse here.
Every child at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado was taken into state custody more than six weeks ago, after Child Protective Services officials argued that members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints pushed underage girls into marriage and sex and groomed boys to become adult perpetrators. Only a few dozen of the roughly 440 children seized are teenage girls; half were under 5.
The appeals court said the state was wrong to consider the entire ranch as an individual household and that the state couldn't take all the children from a community on the notion that some parents in the community might be abusers.
"The existence of the FLDS belief system as described by the department's witnesses, by itself, does not put children of FLDS parents in physical danger," the court said in its ruling.
The court said that although five girls had become pregnant at age 15 or 16, the state gave no evidence about the circumstances of the pregnancies. It noted that minors as young as 16 can wed in Texas with parental consent, and even younger children can marry if a court approves it.
Balovich said the appeals court "has stood up for the legal rights of these families and given these mothers hope that their families will be brought back together."
CPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins said department attorneys had just received the ruling and would make any decision about an appeal later.
"We are trying to assess the impact that this may have on our case," he said.
Even before Thursday's ruling, the state's allegations of teenage girls being pushed into sex appeared to be deflating.
Of the 31 sect members CPS once said were underage mothers, 15 have been reclassified as adults one was 27 years old and an attorney for a 14-year-old girl said in court that she had no children and was not pregnant, as officials previously asserted.
Five judges in San Angelo, about 40 miles north of Eldorado, have been hearing CPS's plans for the parents seeking to regain custody. Those hearings, which began Monday, were suspended after the appellate ruling Thursday.
The custody case has been chaotic from the beginning. The hearing in which Walther ruled that the children should all enter state custody ran two days.
Hundreds of lawyers crammed into a courtroom and nearby auditorium, queuing up to voice objections or ask questions on behalf of the mothers who were there in their trademark prairie dresses and braided hair.
CPS has struggled with even the identities of the children for weeks and scattered them across foster facilities all over the sprawling state, with some siblings separated by as much as 600 miles.
The sect children were removed en masse during a raid that began April 3 after someone called a domestic abuse hot line claiming to be a pregnant abused teenage wife. The girl has not been found and authorities are investigating whether the calls were a hoax.
The FLDS, which teaches that polygamy brings glorification in heaven, is a breakaway of the Mormon church, which renounced polygamy more than a century ago. Members contend they are being persecuted by state officials for their religious beliefs.
“Yup. Never make assumptions based on hearsay...”
Or Freeper hysterical mob rumor and lies.
So teenage pregnancy is a criminal offense? Didn’t know that.
They don’t post here on these threads but they continue on slamming religions not approved by them as if this whole case never happened. Surreal. Dirty rotten name calling folks. I haven’t and won’t forget their fascist behavior.
If my God required animal sacrifice for atonement, and the state passed a law forbidding animal sacrifice, does that mean my religion is no longer legitimate?
Actually yes, and it's been tested in the courts. That's why you don't see any bloody animal sacrificial altars around. In most places in the USA animal sacrifice is illegal--and if your religion makes you violate those laws, well, you go to jail. When a fundamental tenet of any religion is breaking particular laws, then (because it's a fundamental tenet), that religion is illegitimate.
Aztec religion had human sacrifice as a fundamental tenet. Aztec religion (since it always involves human sacrifice) is illegal and illegitimate.
If my religion opposes same-sex marriage and refuses to officiate their weddings, and the state supreme court makes a ruling that gays can get married, is my religion no longer legitimate?
Sure, if law is entirely relative and arbitrary--which sounds like the assumption you are starting with. However NO of course not! if law is based on the moral principles of natural law and scripture.
If my Bible teaches that God created the universe, and the state passes a law requiring that students be taught the theory of evolution, and I take my kids from the public schools and refuse to teach evolution, does that make my religion illegitimate?
Ummm, last I checked, private and home schooling are legal in the USA--so you don't have to teach your kids evolution. Again, you're assuming law is legitimate just because its become law--I'm assuming only moral laws are legitimate.
Do you REALLY believe that it is the state, and it's laws, that defines what a legitimate religion is?
No, however it is the state that enforces the law. And legitimate law is moral law. Laws against polygamy are moral, as they coincide with longstanding natural law--and longstanding moral principles of marriage as taught in the bible.
Are you disputing laws against polygamy?
Stupid analogy. Are women in Afghanistan entitled to liberty, freedom, due process and the presumption of innocence as Americans, all Americans, even the weird ones are entitled to? If there was criminal behavior, as we all can imagine - this whole effort and episode to stomp on individual rights screwed everything up as it was conducted. Stupid stupid stupid and many here saw it for what it was - a egregious assault on liberty -— that was actually supported by people who consider themselves conservatives. Now those children that are in fact abused will likely be going home with the rest that aren’t in danger. How smart was that?
Over at Liestoppers we have been following the FLDS case with interest because of the parallels with the Duke Lacrosse Frame.
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Liestoppers_meeting/topic/292744/1/?x=50#new
“Missing in the entire dialog is the fact that a 12 year old girl can get an abortion and no one bats an eye. If someone reports that a Christian group as a pregnant 16 year old girl it is the end of the world. If children are taken away from this group because some of the girls are under 18 and pregnant then every abortion clinic in the U.S. should be shut down for the same thing. Not reporting rape and abuse of young girls. Who is worse. The FLDS or the tens of thousands of rapist who are protected by Planned Parenthood every year.”
Great points. It is lost on many of the religious zealots here because it wasn’t an approved religion or a derivative of an approved religion sanctioned by thier partner in crime - the Government. Then again, for some here suprisingly - the Government is God.
I'll take you up on that. First, what is polygamy, legally? It's not, by the way, sleeping with more than one woman.
Second, by now several courts and numerous legislatures have been busy redefining marriage. Don't you find it nonsensical to redefine marriage in the case of homosexual unions but to continue to insist that the number one (1) is sacrosanct? So, yes, indeed, laws against polygamy may be unconstitutional. This case may test that theory in court.
By your definition, Christianity is not a legitimate religion in those states.
I never said that just because something is law, it makes it moral. See my posting #44 above.
As to your other points, interesting, but not quite correct. Almost all states did have laws against sex outside of marriage (usually not heavily enforced) on the books. With the "sexual revolution" of the '60 though, and the fact that 30+ percent of American children are now bastards--these are totally impossible to enforce, as the social customs and morals are not there behind it; also courts would throw them out, like they did with Texas anti-sodomy laws.
Especially given the confusion seen even on this thread about polygamy laws, I predict they have less than 10 years, until courts throw them out--based on the imminent legalization of homosexual "marriage."
America is more and more becoming less and less my country...
in your world was helping these women the primary reason troops were sent to afgahanistan
This was a unanimous ruling by 3 conservative REPUBLICAN judges.
There is a mainstream religion in the US, practiced by millions of Americans, that does, indeed, require animal sacrifice.
But they don’t do it.
I also am one that said something was very wrong with the CPS actions. My point was there are anti_LDS people here that attacked anyone that didn’t hold to what they thought was right, which was pro CPS.
so every church that is anti-abortion is not a church anymore. Abortion is the law of the land and by your argument we should of course accept it. Any church that marched or practiced civil disobediences for civil rights should also be shut down. They broke the law of the land and taught that it should be changed. Those churches who helped start the underground railroad, they must go too. I am not defending this group, I am defending the constitution.
We must also determine what polygamy is. Are they really breaking the law. If man A marries women B and then has women C also live with them is this officially polygamy? No not at all. Polygamy is marrying two people at one time. Many of the people will marry one woman and then adopt another. Why is that so horrible? I could make a traditional argument that for most of the history of the world this was accepted in every culture.
I personally don’t care how many people a person lives with or has sex with. As long as they are of legal age and can make up their own minds.
Now I know where your going to go with this. What about gay marriage. No it is not the same. Gay marriage has never been an accepted practice in any culture. Polygamy, in the grand scheme of things, has only been taboo for a very short time. But I come back to this point. Is there really any polygamy going on there? If these marriages are not registered with the government then they are not legal marriages. Do these people have marriage licenses for more then one person? if that comes out then I will agree with you that those people should be put in jail or what ever the fine is. If it comes out that a child was molested then that person should be put in jail. If it comes out that all the children where molested by all the adults then they all should go to jail. But those who have done nothing wrong should not be punished.
That wasn't the purpose of the operation. In this world there are a lot of governments that should be destroyed.(Zimbabwe, Burma. North Korea...). But the problem is once you start interfering in the internal affairs of another country it's difficult to know when to stop, and pretty soon everybody is at war.
Therefore it behooves nation-states to restrain themselves until they have a legitimate reason. Then it's Hasta la vista Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Mullah Omar.
But it's to deal with the war pretext, in the case of Afghanistan the Taliban alliance with Al Qaeda, a group which had initiated an act of war against the USA
Any improvement in the condition of Afghan women is classed as collateral benefit.
It is pretty clear that Texas CPS had been plotting against the compound for years and were waiting for their pretext. It turned out to be a staged call -- do we know yet if CPS was behind the fraudulent call? The head of CPS wanted to imprint her career forever in the annals of her field.
This was worse than the seizure of Elian Gonzalez from his bed that one morning back in 1999 or 2000.
Yes, those FLDS folks live strange lives but those children need their mother sand the home they are being raised in. Any other outcome means we are becoming a police state.
I hope FLDS sues the bloody pants off Texas CPS, and I hope the case goes to the Supreme Court. CPS departments in every state are allowed to seize children under very weak pretext and that is wrong.
With neighbors like you, we don't need to wait for tyranny in government.
Reasonable people can reach different conclusions about what they believe. However; the FBI did knowingly, and willfully fire bullets through a house they knew contained children and infants.
It is not that far a leap from being willing to shoot babies, to burning them. No paranoia required.
This would be similar to attending the same church as your next door neighbor and CPS taking your kids because your neighbor abuses his kids.
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