Posted on 05/18/2008 10:05:55 PM PDT by UCANSEE2
"Three weeks into covering the polygamous ranch raid story, I keep hearing from colleagues throughout NBC News who want to know more about how members of the sect live."
--snip--
"Here are some of the things members of the sect told me about life on the YFZ Ranch – which stands for Yearn For Zion – in Eldorado, Texas:"
--snip--
"Much of the above sharply contrasts with the picture of alleged physical and sexual abuse painted by state investigators. The courts will ultimately decide which version of the truth is closer to reality. I can’t say whether what ranch residents tell me is true or not, but I thought you’d be interested in what they said." Source: http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/04/23/935617.aspx
(Excerpt) Read more at fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com ...
“I want to make it clear that the two young ladies who gave birth while in custody are different people than the two who were mistakenly held as minors.”
I ain’t deaf.
: )
I don’t know what legal criteria would be used to determine that Texas will get ‘stung’ by CPS misjudging the age of 2 young ladies, who may or may not have been cooperative in giving, or proving their age.
I would like to read the article where it shows these two women were kept in custody, as minors, then released.
I think I may have seen a reference to ‘four’ females, two pregnant, two not, in the age mixup thing, but it didn’t mention any details.
a link or a quote, would help.
Thanks...
Thank you for that link one of the best I have seen.
“They produced birth certificates and at least one of them also had a drivers license and the state originally would not accept them as proof of age.”
Since only the Judge can ‘change’ the protective custody order, once it is in place, then that is why no one ‘else’ would accept it, and just ‘let them go’.
There were stories of some of the females who told CPS they had Birth certificates, and Driver’s licenses, from Utah.
I believe they had to ask for the BC’s to be mailed from Utah.
However, stories like that can often be found to be ‘misleading’. Which is why I would appreciate you showing me where the information you got is from.
I understand what you are saying, but...
how would the CPS have any authority to take all male adults into any kind of custody?
“6:24 p.m. - Judge Walther says she will hear the best objection from each side to corrections made on a document. An attorney says “No objections,” to the applause of the City Auditorium. Discussion centers around children who are pregnant or who gave birth while younger than 17.
At least one girl was as young as 13 when she conceived a child, according to testimony.
Some girls who are reporting they are adults are likely not adults, according to testimony, and maybe as many as 50 percent of the women who say they are adults are not, according to testimony.”
The judge rules that children will be identified by numbers. The CPS witness says one girl said Sarah - the girl who called in the original complaint - does exist. One girl said no age limit exists for girls to get married and have children, the witness says.
Witness said they were told at the gate there were no Sarahs, but workers found several on the ranch.
According to testimony, the CPS investigator began to find 16-year-old mothers with small children and began looking for pregnant teenagers. She found many. Saw a pattern that girls would switch names under testimony and wouldn’t provide full names. They did not, they told her, know their own dates of birth.
Talk goes to girls’ classroom on the ranch. Several girls indicated there were some Sarahs on the ranch, and they went to school with Sarahs
(Nobody has been mentioning this little fact. Turns out, there might really have been a Sarah, and that someone got her ‘out’ (transferred to Canada?) or ‘dead’, before the raid, which the FLDS members were made highly aware was coming.)
Source : http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-ON-FLDS-CUSTODY/
“To me that equates with an assumption of guilt without charges or due process.”
IF they had assumed they were adults, instead of minors, and prevented them from being in protective custody, or being with their children, or something, then it might be lack of due process.
The idea that because the CPS tagged them as minors, and took them into protective custody, cannot be considered any ‘assumption of guilt’ as none of the children in custody are guilty of anything, nor being charged with anything.
They ...are...in...protective custody.
“In court Thursday, Texas state officials presented records they said show 10 women were either married or pregnant as minors. The list was found during the raid, locked in a safe at a main ranch office building, the officials said.”
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/18/polygamy.custody/
“Texas authorities no longer believe that a woman who gave birth to a child in state protective custody is a minor herself.
Lawyers for the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services acknowledged in a hearing in San Angelo on Tuesday that the young woman is legally an adult.
“We received information — credible information — and we now believe this woman who was believed to be a minor in question, is in fact, an adult,” said Texas Child Protective Services spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner.”
“I’ll see if I can find it again.”
I found it.
The state also acknowledged Monday that two more sect members they listed as minors are actually adults. The state has made that mistake at least four times; child welfare officials have complained that church members have not cooperated with their efforts to determine ages and family relationships.
http://www.federalnewsradio.com/?nid=80&sid=1380891
State is battin 0-4.
So, our lack of planning and/or organization equates to "it's OK" to violate your rights?
There is also comments on the 1st warrant.
Welcome. Was actually looking for information on time constraints.
You’re right. That was very unkind of me. I apologize. I was frustrated and didn’t want to take the time to untangle things.
Your initial post was to compare this situation to the situation where an adult in a household is abusing one child, and the government removes all the children. Let’s assume the standard is the same as Texas’ standard. The agency can take children who are being abused or who are in “imminent danger” of being abused.
In the situation you posit, at least one child is being abused. The State can say, “What’s to prevent the abuser from doing the same thing to all the other children in the house?” This would be a valid argument for “imminent danger.”
You have a much different situation here. If the “abuse” is the ritual marriage of a young girl, then only young girls are at risk of it. The State is not claiming that all children are being sexually abused. Just the girls who have reached puberty. (I know there have been other, discrete allegations about two individuals who don’t live in Texas, but neither has been proven yet and, to my knowledge, they hasn’t been part of this case.)
That’s why the State has broadened the allegation of “abuse.” The abuse that they are claiming as justification for taking all the children is not the ritual marriage of underage girls, it is the teaching of the FLDS religion to all the children. They have variously called it “indoctrination” and “grooming.” But, to my knowledge, there has never been an instance in which the teaching of a religion, no matter how weird, has been deemed sufficient reason to take children away. This is a frightening precedent.
On one side, we have the jihadis trying to kill us because we're infidels, on another, we have the left using the courts to re-write the Constitution, and now we have conservatives that want to hand over their rights "for the children".
We're leaving our children far less freedom than was left us and that's not supposed to be how it works.
I don’t think it’s the left. I think it’s Mormon haters, who view these people as Mormons, and therefore not worthy of human consideration. Most of the Mormon haters are conservatives, unless I miss my guess.
I just reread your post. Mine was unnecessary.
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