Posted on 05/15/2008 7:37:59 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy
AUSTIN - Lawyers for the state conceded in court today that the woman from the polygamist sect who gave birth this week while in the state's custody is not a minor and said she is free to return to her home in West Texas or remain with her three children -- including the newborn -- under protective care.
She might be guilty of thinking about attempting to advocate polygamy to her newborn. That could very well be a crime. At least a thought crime.
She may not even have had the criminal thought yet, but it may be possible to prove that she WILL EVENTUALLY commit that thought crime. It is the job of the police to prevent crime, isn't it? She's obviously a very dangerous person. Had she simply aborted the baby, we wouldn't have to worry about her hurting it.
How old was she when she had her first child? Did she, of her own free will, choose the man she married OR did Jeffs, her father, or one of the elders of the community make that decision for her?
These, of course, are rhetorical questions. I don't expect either she or her husband to say other than that they "freely fell in love with each other" and their decision to marry was totally between the two of them.
That's not the way the FLDS in Texas works. Jeffs, the "Prophet", who receives "direct revelations from God", makes all the decisions.
Years ago, I heard many many times “Better for 10 guilty to go free than to wrongfully convict one person.”
The war on drugs and the 9/11 tragedy has brought us full circle. Now too many of our citizens think it better to throw 10 in jail just in case there is one bad one in the bunch.
That is actually what we are seeing here. Throw everyone in jail and find out later who are the bad guys.
One more thing you should never forget. The Constitution was written as it was because our founding fathers knew that government was to be feared.
Nyfong and the Duke case is one hour from here. If that were the only prosecutor in the US that abused his power, we could all go to sleep tonight and forget it. But I know that there are many who do abuse their power. At the same time the Nyfong scandal was in progress, there were two others in the Fayetteville area that were before the board for prosecutorial misconduct. They barely got off on a technicality.
And I once served on a jury, which I hung because of what I considered prosecutorial misconduct. The prosecutor insisted on a retrial. I told the defense attorney what I knew and he won the case with the jury out only 45 minutes.
My point is not that all cops are bad. My point is that there are just enough power hungry people in government that we should constantly be on guard that no one is abused by people in power.
Hunch? That's your word. In fact, you don't know what the investigators saw, found, when they scoured the FLDS compound. We have no idea what information they're getting from those reams of paperwork they confiscated.
Aside from that, so much testimony about what actually goes on in the "secret society" is now getting the attention it deserves, even if it's too late in coming.
Despite the fact that posters on this and other threads have given you sensible answers to your claims, you keep repeating and repeating the same thing.
The FLDS children WERE NOT arrested. Texas had NO intention to punish them. They were removed from a home where Texas law enforcement obviously had sufficient reason to believe child abuse occurred. If there is credible reason to believe that any child is suffering from abuse in the home, authorities can hardly be expected to leave any other children there.
Do you totally dispute the testimonies and evidence that Warren Jeffs, for one, claims complete control over the lives of everyone in this sect? I've read plenty on the subject and I do believe it. The Constitution guarantees our freedoms but Jeffs, for one, takes it away. That, in itself, is a crime IMO.
I just told you so you wouldn’t get tossed into the fire...
IF she stays in state custody herself. She's free to go, but only without her baby. Something of a misleading headline.
I don't think she can be, she is married to only one husband, even if he has other wives, which in her case apparently does not.
(I believe this was her first),
Story says it's her third.
The same judge who authorized the original "raid" on the basis of unsworn hearsay? From someone who was not only not known to the person swearing the affidavit for the warrant, but who in all likelihood does not exist, except in the mind of a known hoaxer?
AFAIK, arranged marriages are not per se illegal. If the marriage was otherwise legal, then the reason for it are irrelevant as long as both parties enter into it willingly. I know at least two men whose marriages were arranged. In both cases their wives got the short end of the stick, but those wives are or were (one, a pediatrician, is deceased) Both men are near 60 years old now, and both from India. One is an engineer by training the other a PhD (US school) physicist. The physicists wife has two master's degrees, one from a US school. Both women were pretty good looking when they married. But arranged marriages are still common and expected in much of the world, including India. Some families try to arrange a marriage for their US born daughters and sons, but the "kids" rarely go along with that, but if they want to, they can do so legally.
CPS is not considered law enforcement in any state that I am aware of. They are usually part of social services and work under a totally different system, rules, and procedures from LEO. If they were LEO then they could not legally do some of what they do. That distinction is the cause of some of the confusion about why they can do things regarding children that LEOs cannot do because of constitutional rights, rules of evidence, due process, etc. CPS works with LEO when they need to and directly with the court. They have certain powers- of course they can take your children but they also have investigative duties; but they are not considered LEO, and cannot make arrests and things of that type. Anything they encounter of a criminal nature- that part of the case has to be turned over to LEOs to investigate, etc.
The real reason CPS has so much power is because judges will nearly always back them up in whatever they want to do. The reason judges usually do this is the very real fear that if a judge doesn't back up CPS and then something bad happens to the child- guess who gets the blame? The judge. No judge wants to be in that position so in reality judges will do whatever CPS wants in almost every case. This is good in that CPS has real teeth and can remove children from a bad situation ASAP. It can also be bad because it really opens the door for abuse when you give anyone that much power.
Even if a judge thinks CPS might be wrong- the judge will usually not want their a$$ on the line so will back CPS and wait for lawyers to later bring up problems and then rule on each issue. I consider them a neccessary evil. We need them to have the power they do in order to be able to protect the children that need it. That said, because they have so much power and do not have to follow what we think of as rights, etc- then I think we should keep an eye on them, and I think we should question what they do, and how they do it.
It is a thankless job, and they are in many darned if you do/darned if you don't situations- but I do think we need to hold them accountable if and when we think they have overstepped. I don't know if they overstepped in this case- don't have enough facts and don't trust the media to be honest. I do know, as many lawyers as this case has attracted- CPS actions will be examined under a microscope over this before it is through- and likely in several cases in several courts. I am not going to worry so much about whether or not they were out of line because of the scrutiny they will get. I would worry much more about CPS being held accountable if this was- say my neighbor, since individual cases of neglect/abuse almost never get this kind of attention-so won't have the level of oversight this case will have.
heh heh heh ... thanx ... but fire don’t bother me.
Excellent comments re: the difference between CPS/LE. What puzzles me is how much of a surprise this is for folks. Don’t they ever watch Law & Order SVU re-runs? :) I’ve seen it happen there plenty! An unsafe and/or criminal situation is discovered; children are seen in the environment; CPS is called in to remove/protect the children. Then Stabler, Olivia, Munch, and Tutuola find the “perps.” The “perps” are rarely arrested before the children are taken away. (okay, I admit to watching too many late night reruns...) But....how many times have I seen a real case where a child is found having been seriously abused, and when hearing that CPS had previously investigated the situation and left the children in the environment, cry out about the inept government workers? The big difference here is in the numbers of children involved, which is mind-boggling. But then so is the abuse and rape of children.
Since this FLDS case I've learned what to do if they come . Usually they go to your child's school or your neighbors to inquire about what is going on before you are aware they are involved . When they do come you can pretend you aren't home but they will sometimes sit outside your house for a long time. If you open the door to them you can say I prefer a lawyer present but they are there to check out the house & you so it is sort of pointless as they will do their job even if you object. My neighbor told me to get a notebook or a tape recorder & write (or tape) the whole interview. They don't like that too much but it is your right. Usually they want to check your house to see how clean it is. Look into your child's room & dresser drawers to see clean clothing. They will make sure your fridge has food in it & all your utilities are working. They will ask you to submit to a drug/alcohol test or give you a certain amount of hours to get one if they feel the need. If you have a baby they will check it for diaper rash or bruises etc. If you have too many animals they can tell you by a certain date to get rid of them or call the animal control officer to come out. They have a list & if you fail it they will give you a short time to make your house clean etc unless its dangerous. Their goal is supposed to keep the family together & work on getting them the help they need to stay together. Most people do not trust them. But I have known a family where they did help them when the mother had mental problems & DYFS tried hard to help them. They did end up taking 2 of the sons to a group home & I ended up with the oldest son. DYFS once involved will stop by at anytime they want for spot checks.
LEO can & will call DYFS out if they respond to a call & see a child is neglected or a filthy house or if you are too impaired to care for the child. In those cases my neighbor that is the DYFS worker says its more then likely the child gets removed from the house. She is on call so many days per month 24/7. If foster care can't be found that night she will keep the child in her office until placement can be found. There might be some things I am leaving out but that is more or less how it works in my state. Also many of the calls my neighbor is sent to are calls made by fighting friends or ex husband & wives. They have to go out on each & every call that comes into their office. Even if they think its a crank call they can't take a chance that a child is in danger.
As in LE I meant that they are doing what our laws legally allow. They aren’t the police but they can call the police in if they need them. Good post.
That said.. the kids were taken because of what CPS saw after they entered.
That’s parsing Cindy although technically I don’t completely disagree with you but historically warrants obtained on false affadavits or false informant information have big hurdles to overcome subsequently when challenged.
As they should more often than not.
Contrary to the views of many here, these oddballs have been living like this since the mid 1800s and therefore the sense of urgency one might have had to say raid the Manson Family ranch and shuck constitutional protection might be less easy to explain or justify.
But we shall see....so far just as I’ve said since this started all I see so far are consent law violations and polygamy...the latter being harder to prove in these spiritual sealing “marriages”
but there is lots of innendo out there from waterboarding toddlers to human sacrifice.
Before you start though, I am not going to once again address every single allegation. I think everyone here already knows what they are and have formed their opinion on either skepticism (me) or belief (the T&P crowd)both molded by personal perspective in general.
That’s parsing Cindy although technically I don’t completely disagree with you but historically warrants obtained on false affadavits or false informant information have big hurdles to overcome subsequently when challenged.
As they should more often than not.
Contrary to the views of many here, these oddballs have been living like this since the mid 1800s and therefore the sense of urgency one might have had to say raid the Manson Family ranch and shuck constitutional protection might be less easy to explain or justify.
But we shall see....so far just as I’ve said since this started all I see so far are consent law violations and polygamy...the latter being harder to prove in these spiritual sealing “marriages”
but there is lots of innendo out there from waterboarding toddlers to human sacrifice.
Before you start though, I am not going to once again address every single allegation. I think everyone here already knows what they are and have formed their opinion on either skepticism (me) or belief (the T&P crowd)both molded by personal perspective in general.
That's not the way the FLDS in Texas works. Jeffs, the "Prophet", who receives "direct revelations from God", makes all the decisions.
Now we've settled that, we can go after the Moonies
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