Sect boys may have been abused by older boys

MySA.com ^ | 5/1/08 | Terri Langford and Lisa Sandberg

[Politicalmom]

State authorities are investigating whether younger boys taken from a polygamist ranch in West Texas were sexually abused by older boys, not adults, a state official said today.

Documents taken from the Yearning for Zion Ranch near Eldorado indicate that younger boys were molested by older boys at the ranch, the official, who asked not to be identified, told the Houston Chronicle.

No other details about the abuse were available.

On Wednesday, Texas Department of Family and Protective Services Commissioner Carey Cockerell revealed to a Senate panel that at least 41 of the 464 children in state custody had previously broken or fractured bones.

``Several of these fractures have been found in very young children and several had multiple fractures,'' he said.

Most of the information about the fractures was reported to DFPS' Texas Child Protective Services by the children or their mothers. Few X-rays have been done on the children, agency officials said.

But Cockerell also told the Senate Health and Human Services Committee that the agency is looking into the possible sexual abuse of some boys, based on interviews and journal entries.

In addition, he informed the panel of several hurdles CPS workers faced in trying to identify the children and determine their health status.

He said both women and children removed plastic identity bracelets issued to them or rubbed the wording off of them. CPS had tried to use the bracelets to help workers keep track of children.

Also, FLDS women initially refused to let the children undergo basic health screenings and many of the teen girls refused to take pregnancy tests. The women and older children often monitored younger children, telling them not to speak to CPS workers or coaching them on what to say, Cockerell said.

For the past month, child welfare investigators had focused nearly all of their attention on the alleged sexual abuse of young girls who once resided with their parents at the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints' ranch.

Until now, officials have alluded only occasionally to suspected physical abuse. The breakaway Mormon sect practices polygamy and its spiritual leader, Warren Jeffs, is serving a prison sentence after being convicted of being an accomplice to rape of an underage girl.

No other details were available about the possible abuse of the boys or how many of the fractures, which affect less than 10 percent of the total child population from the sect, can be attributed to their life on a big ranch with a large amount of construction and farm equipment.

FLDS spokesman Rod Parker called Cockerell's testimony "a deliberate effort to mislead the public."

Parker said any broken bones would have been treated in medical facilities away from the ranch and that doctors are required to report suspected abuse.

It was not clear how many of the children might have been injured while playing or working on the 1,700-acre ranch they once called home.

Lloyd Barlow, the ranch's onsite physician, said he was caring for a number of FLDS children with broken or fractured bones at the time they were removed from the ranch.

"Probably over 90 percent of the injuries are forearm fractures from ground-level or low level falls," Barlow told the Associated Press. "I can also tell you that we don't live in a community where there is a pattern of abuse."

Dr. Emalee Flaherty, a pediatrician in Chicago who specializes in child abuse, cautioned against jumping to conclusions that the children's broken bones were caused by abuse.

There might be many variables, she said, such as a high incidence of bone disease or a special diet that causes a vitamin deficiency that predisposes the group's children to brittle bones.

"This is a pretty closed community," Flaherty said, adding that life on a ranch might also expose children to injuries.

Dr. Bruce Perry, a Houston child psychiatrist and child abuse expert, said the type of fracture also is important.

"There are certain characteristics of fractures that go with abuse," Perry said. "It would be really important to know what bone was fractured and the type of fracture."

The state's April 3 raid on the YFZ Ranch has been criticized by some who believe CPS overstepped its authority when it took all of the children and placed them in foster care after finding underage girls were "spiritually married" to much older men.

CPS officials counter that they found at least one underage girl who was pregnant or had children in each of the sect's 19 homes on the ranch when they first arrived on April 3.

The agency clarified that number on Monday, saying at least 31 of the 53 girls ages 14 to 17 are pregnant, have children or both. Another child was born to a teen mother on Tuesday.

All of the children have been placed in group homes and shelters around the state until the investigation is completed.

For CPS, determining ages has been one of the biggest challenges. The agency reached the 53 total after reclassifying 26 girls, who had said they were older than 18, as younger than 18.

Stephanie Goodman, spokeswoman for the state's Health and Human Services Department, said those girls had told officials they were younger than 18.

"For most of these children, we've been given different ages and different names," Goodman said. "We have teenagers who can't tell us their birthdates. Some have answered (that) they don't know. Others have said, 'I'm not supposed to tell you.' "

Under Texas law, children under age 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult. A girl can get married with parental permission at 16, but none of the sect's girls is believed to have had a legal marriage under state law. Also Wednesday, legal aid attorneys for some of the mothers filed an amended petition with the Third Court of Appeals in Austin, seeking the return of the children sent to residential foster care homes across the state.

"The wholesale removal of (the children) from their mothers was not justified," the petition read in part.

The department may have introduced evidence that some girls were being physically abused, but such evidence did not "pertain to the overwhelming majority of the children ... nor did it establish that each child was at risk of physical danger."

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

Preach it, bro!

[UCANSEE2]

I have repeated the same thing, several times, on various threads.

No one has beat me up over it yet.

[GovernmentShrinker]

They haven’t been releasing any information that could be linked to specific children, as far as I can tell. I don’t think they’re restricted from discussing the whole situation in general terms.

[GovernmentShrinker]

Probably the same sort of people who can read about early Popes imprisoning and executing people for things like saying the Earth revolves around the Sun, and still stay Catholic. Some of those early Popes produced quite a few “illegitimate” children too. And we all know what a lot of modern Catholic priests have been up to. And then there was Cardinal Law, who actively helped conceal the activities of chld molesting priests, and arranged for them to be transferred to new parishes where unsuspecting parishioners would let them have unsupervised access to a fresh batch of children. How horrified was the current Catholic Church leadership by this? Well not too horrified to have Cardinal Law transferred to a cushy position at the Vatican, where one of his duties involved an active role in the ceremony installing the current Pope.

Why is it people get all worked about icky stuff in Mormon history, but are quick to defend people who stay in the Catholic Church?

[GovernmentShrinker]

No, the fumarase deficiency syndrome is the form of inbreeding-related retardation you’ve heard about. Those kids rarely even advance to the point of sitting up or crawling. They are certainly not driving tractors, or even helping set the table for dinner. They lie in cribs and get fed and get their diapers changed, and that’s about it for their lives.

[CharlesWayneCT]

It is also interesting that this particular girl is suggested to have been made pregnant by someone who was 19 at the time of the first pregnancy.

I had argued earlier that it seemed rational that at least SOME of the girls were pregnant by other teenagers, and not the older men. I didn’t know how many, and I didn’t say it was certain, just that it seemed logical.

Some people told me I was dead wrong, that there was no way any of these girls were having sex with other teenagers.

But this story shows that this girl had sex with a teenage boy. So I guess it wasn’t as impossible as others suggested.

[GovernmentShrinker]

No doubt there are a few privileged teenage boys who get wives assigned to them, most likely sons of Warren Jeffs and Merril Jessop and a couple of other very top leaders of the cult. If they didn’t dole out wives to at least a few boys, the rest would quickly figure out that they were slaving away at cult-ordered work for nothing and take a hike. That wouldn’t be consistent with the cult’s money-making enterprise of forcing young men and older boys to work while all the cash from outside construction work, and buildings from work on cult property, end up with the cult. When the boys/young men eventually express dissatifaction with this arrangement, which most do long before they’re assigned a wife, they’re kicked out.

[UCANSEE2]

“So I guess it wasn’t as impossible as others suggested.”

No. Of course not. You were speculating and so were those who said you were wrong.

Frankly, I think we will all find out that none of us ‘knows’ for sure, and very, very, few, if any, will be 100% correct, regardless to the outcome.

Warren Jeffs nephew is awaiting trial for being 19 years old and ‘spiritually-married’ to a 14 year old. Warren Jeffs is in jail for condoning, ordering, performing the so called marriage.

So, if a 19 year old boy has sex with a 14 year old girl, well there is still a problem.

If we ‘focus’ on the girl in this particular instance, as the ultimate proof of whether there was child abuse, or indecency with a minor, then we are walking off a cliff without even looking.

In the absence of a NAME, or DNA tests proving who the father was, I might be skeptical of any 19 year old that claimed to be the father, especially in light of the Statements of the CPS that the women and children consistently lied, and had been taught to lie to authorities since birth.

So, who knows?

You?
Me?

Likely not.

I don’t doubt we will know soon.

[UCANSEE2]

Thanks. Another poster made much the same comment. I was just proposing it, so we could examine the question, and eliminate it if needed.

A common ‘lawyer’ technique (no, I’m not) is to present allegations of the prosecutor, and then destroy them.
Once addressed that way, the jury is less likely to let their mind get carried away later when the prosecutor throws down.

---

“They lie in cribs and get fed and get their diapers changed, and that’s about it for their lives.”

So, with the FLDS members having the highest rate of fumerase deficiency, compared to similar populations, where are all the retarded kids?

Are the retarded kids (boys?) considered damaged?

It would seem they allow a certain amount of retardation in the women. Wonder what they do with the extremes in the females? Same thing as the boys?

Rumors abound about baby graveyards, around the other FLDS compounds in CO,UTAH,AZ. No proof yet.

But Warren Jeffs did pay to have an incinerator installed for his temple.

Other than burning trash, which may be a necessity for a group that allows no outsiders, it could also be a convenient method for disposing of just about ‘anything’.

[Saundra Duffy]

Thanks for trying, pal. CTR.

[CharlesWayneCT]

It did say it was a Jessop, although I wasn’t sure that told us which Jessop because I’ve been led to believe that a good number of people at the site share a few last names.

[CharlesWayneCT]

BTW, good job following threads. I just realised I put this in the wrong thread, but you knew what I was talking about anyway. Thanks.

[Elsie]

 

Then instead of your typical little remark, why don’t you produce the teaching?

We are all waiting.

 

 

First things first!!

 

 

"Just what did Joseph Smith 'learn' to be UNTRUE about PRESBYTERIANISM?"

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19   17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!   18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.   19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”   20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

 

---

 

 

 

There are no MORMONS on these threads that have an answer!!

 

Yet; their very LIVES & SOULS depend on it being true!

[Elsie]

Since I have been called by the Admin Moderator, I will only remind you that you claim to not be a member so there is obviously NO value to your little statements.

 

There is no need for all the typing: just call out the NUMBER!!!

 

 

 

 

And here we have #2; again...

                       Standard LDS responses to data put to them:

 

Shorthand	Reference:
1. How you interpret it is wrong...	(Need a source)
2. You are too ignorant to really understand it because you are not a member....	(Need a source)
3. You're not qualified to judge because you're no LONGER a member...	(Need a source)
4. You are just a bigot for bringing the whole ugly truth to light ...	(Need a source)
5. So’s yer Mama!	(Need a source)
6. Laugh it all off and post some silly image.	(Need a source)
7. Jump down the rabbit hole; Alice!	http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1982682/posts?page=683#683
8. Bait & Switch	(Need a source)
9. The OTHER 'half' of the truth is what we are avoiding.	(Need a source)
10. "I Know It When I See It"	(Need a source)
11. Hand waving...	(Need a source)
12. YOU play defense for a while.	http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1982682/posts?page=944#944
13. HEE Hee hee... let's get the Calvinists and the Armenians fighting!	http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1994515/posts?page=15#15
14. GREAT FUN! Let's get the Catholics and the Protestants fighting!	(Need a source)
15. Huh? Did you say something?	(Need a source)
16. If I repeat this enough times some folks will be fooled into thinking it's true.	http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1997522/posts?page=2252#2252
17. Playing dumb.	(Need a source)
18. Refusing to answer because your ATTITUDE offends them.	(Need a source)
19. (Let's see if they'll fall for the 'Defend a freak' ploy.)	(Need a source)
20. And the MOST used...  IGNORE what they posted and answer the question that SHOULD have been asked.	http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=UMJvqBq_Qa8

 

 

 

 

 

" The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success

unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly -

- it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over."

[Elsie]

Pardon me, but due to your historic histrionics, I have absolutely NOTHING further to say to you.

FURTHER???

HA Ha ha!

[Elsie]

Now, what do the rest of us have to do to get the same guarantee?

Hey!

I can put up with him, if he can with me.

One day we might actually exchange ideas like adults.

[Elsie]

I know what I did when I was that age.

What 'age' is THAT??? ;^)

[Elsie]

Why should I refute such obvious garbage?

Uh...

I think he was wanting you to justify some factual historical statements made by early lds leaders.

[Elsie]

Can you cite for me just one instance of anybody at F.R. who has said or implied that they hate Mormons?

It's in our very DNA, you Boob! uh... GENTILE!

If you do NOT go along with everything we, ahem, beleve, ipso facto: you MUST hate us!

--MormonDude(I, myself, am quite lovable.)

[Elsie]

But...but...what would we do for fun on FR if there were no leaks?

It just Depends®.