Amid confusion, LDS clarify faith

The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 04/28/2008 | Lisa Rosetta

[ricks_place]

Under shower of questions sparked by FLDS raid, LDS members set differences, explain faith

SAN ANGELO, Texas - The Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' Second Ward here, Jeffrey Bushman, is used to the quizzical looks and sometimes ludicrous questions directed at people of the Mormon faith.

As a missionary in New York 40 years ago, Bushman once was asked if he had devil's horns. He responded by offering to display the place on his head where he had had them sawed off.

“The only thing they knew about us were horns, polygamy and the Tabernacle Choir,” he said.

So when the Fundamental Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints' Yearning for Zion Ranch was raided April 3, sparking a national media frenzy, he and other church members were prepared to field the inevitable questions that would arise.

Do they practice polygamy? Are their children sexually abused?

“I've had a lot of my neighbors come up” and make inquiries, said Bishop Bushman's First Counselor Jared Seegmiller, who explains to them that the FLDS splintered off from the mainstream LDS Church after the latter renounced polygamy and threatened to excommunicate practitioners of plural marriage.

“And that's really the only explanation I've had to give them,” he said. “And they say, 'OK, that makes sense.' ”

Even some of the newest members of the church have approached Bushman to get clear on whether polygamy is still practiced by the LDS.

“We've had to deal just a little bit with trying to make sure some of our members don't think we're part of the same [FLDS] church,” he said.

Texas officials have played a role in the confusion. Even while acknowledging the two religions are separate, Judge Barbara Walther, of the 51st District Court, asked FLDS attorneys on April 21 to find members of local LDS congregations to supervise the FLDS women and children while they prayed.

Bushman was among those who got a call to do it.

“I said, 'No thank you, that's not quite our job,' ” he said. “I would feel a little awkward. . . . I don't want to be a party to something that may or may not be right.”

While some members are upset by the media's lack of distinction between the two churches, most see it as an opportunity for a discussion about the true doctrine underlying their faith.

“Most of them, I think, believe that it has opened up the lines of communication about the church, probably more than anything else that has happened,” Bushman said. “Their friends and their neighbors ask questions.”

While the LDS don't condone polygamy or child abuse, the bishop said, the raid has in some ways forged a small connection between the two religions. The LDS, historically a persecuted group of people, can sympathize with a church under siege.

“Watching them [Texas Rangers] go into the temple down there, going through it, made me think of the Nauvoo era: just run them out and do what they want to with the building,” Bushman said. “Obviously we understand that a little bit. That's in the back of our heads.”

The FLDS, meanwhile, have turned to some LDS for support. One member, a San Angelo medical professional who asked that his name not be printed, said an FLDS client called him shortly after the raid.

The distressed woman didn't ask for help, he said. “[She just] wanted to know someone on the outside cared about them.”

[Colofornian]

Did you guys knwo that the Bible says in the latter days seven women will hold onto one man and be called by his name? Are we in the latter days?

What % of the polygamists have or have had exactly seven wives? (Not very many? Oh.)

[Colofornian]

Did you guys knwo that the Bible says in the latter days seven women will hold onto one man and be called by his name? Are we in the latter days?

All true believing Mormons, whether they be fundie or ex-fundie (mainstream), don't believe the prophet Isaiah's plain later words (like Is. 44:8 & 43:10). So why should they attach themselves to obscure and less plainly obvious words like Is. 4:1?

Isaiah: Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. (Isaiah 44:8)

If Isaiah's God doesn't know of any gods besides Him, that's good enough for me. You? (But the average true believing Mormon openly denies this; for first of all, LDS leaders make out Jesus and the Holy Ghost to be separate "gods" than the Father and LDS "Scripture" in its "Book of Abraham" talks about a "council of gods.")

In the chapter before that, Isaiah gives a testimony whereby he knows of no gods formed before him or after him (Isaiah 43:10). Either the Mormons have a totally dunce god, a god who hit his head & suffers amnesia & can't forecast the future, or "Oops!" Smith stumbled over following thru on his read-the-bible-thru-in-a-year course and missed those verses prior to his book of the dead "Book of Abraham" & his King Follett sermon.

So according to Isaiah 43:10, no Mormon will reach his "ultimate objective" of becoming a god.

[stockpirate]

I do not support any thing these POS have done.

I just recalled the verse from years ago and was able to find it via goolge so I asked.

I was not implying anything, just wondering what some thought about the verse.

Me, I don’t see how any man could even want several wives, hell it is hard enough to be with one.

But of course these pother women are just sex toys and not really a realionship so it is different.

I think adult sexual child abusers should be put to death.

And lets all remember that Ruth Bader Ginsburg once wrote a paper advocting the age of consent be lowered to 11 years old.

So for the left to be raising hell over this is sort of pot and kettle kind of thing.

[Colofornian]

“I've had a lot of my neighbors come up” and make inquiries, said Bishop Bushman's First Counselor Jared Seegmiller, who explains to them that the FLDS splintered off from the mainstream LDS Church after the latter renounced polygamy and threatened to excommunicate practitioners of plural marriage.

You can tell that Mormons' PR agents aren't Paul Harvey types (who supply "the rest of the story"). I'd like to see Bishoip Bushman's answer when his neighbors come up to him holding a copy of LDS apostle's Bruce McConkie's Mormon Doctrine, 1966 edition:

"Obviously the holy practice (of polygamy) will commence again after the Second Coming of the Son of Man and the ushering in of the millennium." (Mormon Doctrine, 1966 edition, see pp. 577-579 for context)

Uh, Mr. McConkie...I know you're deceased...but maybe one of your proxies can explain how it is that LDS regard polygamy as you a "holy practice" and yet it will ex-communicate those who practice this "holy practice?"

Furthermore, how can a Mormon being ex-communicated if they are merely living as Brigham Young, Joseph Smith and the other 70 deceased LDS polygamist general authorities (their top leaders)?

"Families are forever"--the Mormon bumper sticker--is too widely known for LDS leaders to try to weave & bob around that...oh, polygamy is terrible, a communicable disease that will get you ex-communicated...oh, wait, up to 1/3rd of the Mormon church was once polygamous and they are now living on their own planet with many wives...plus thousands of others have been sealed to multiple spouses (men AND women) "for eternity" in the Mormon temple--people who have been married serially & not simultaneously as a polygamist...they, too, become colonized polygamists the moment they & their spouses have died.

(No wonder it gets terribly confusing to ex-fundie mainstream Mormons...how can they condemn a practice other "faithful" Mormons are engaging in on other planets and will one day be re-instated on the Mormon earth).

[Enosh]

"Does the Vatican still rack and torture non believers to get them to confess to devil possession?"

Just Druids, so in this case Mormons are lucky.

"Isn’t it true the Protestants in Massachusetts and Connecticut still burn witches, and dunk them in ponds seven times until they confess to worshiping Satan?"

You've got it backwards; dunk then light, dunk then light. The idea being that only a witch can burn after good dunking. Those who don't light up are treated to readily available BBQ.

"Just curious."

You're welcome.

[Colofornian]

From the article: Texas officials have played a role in the confusion. Even while acknowledging the two religions are separate, Judge Barbara Walther, of the 51st District Court, asked FLDS attorneys on April 21 to find members of local LDS congregations to supervise the FLDS women and children while they prayed. Bushman was among those who got a call to do it. “I said, 'No thank you, that's not quite our job,' ” he said. “I would feel a little awkward. . . . I don't want to be a party to something that may or may not be right.”

Well, Bushman is right about one thing--it's really NOT the primary role of an LDS bishop to go around & be in a prayer environment with others--like you might see a Protestant pastor do at times. The main role of an LDS bishop is to literally "judge" the heart of its ward members. (He has to ask about 18 questions of the ward members to determine if they are "spiritually worthy" to receive a temple recommend from him).

So, had the judge asked him to be a judge, well, that would have been more up his alley. Prayer supervision? Well, as he said, "No, thank you. That's not quite our job."

[AppyPappy]

I saw the Mormon kid next door reading Harry Potter one day. The Mormons must worship Harry Potter.

[P-Marlowe]

The LDS Church is trying desperately to convince the world that the LDS Church really didn't exist until 1890 when they sorta officially kinda put an end to the common practice of having WORTHY dirty old men marry themselves to young breeding stock.

I think it would be fair to say that the FLDS Church was established in 1830 by Polygamists Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and the "Modern LDS Church" (as I see a lot of LDS members refer to themselves) was founded by Wilford Woodruff in 1890.

[Colofornian]

I think it would be fair to say that the FLDS Church was established in 1830 by Polygamists Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and the "Modern LDS Church" (as I see a lot of LDS members refer to themselves) was founded by Wilford Woodruff in 1890.

Exactly. Good insight.

I found some of these stats "interesting" & confirm your assessment:

Q. How successful were polygamist marriages? A. There were over 2000 divorces granted prior to the 1890 Manifesto. Brigham Young himself granted 1,645. Of the 72 general authorities who were polygamists, 39 had broken marriages, including 54 divorces, 26 separations and 1 annulment. (Utah Historical Quarterly, Winter 1978, p4)

Sandra Tanner gave a rundown on the number of wives & children of 7 LDS polygamous "prophets," who quotes LDS publications: Source: http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/ldsleadersbelievepolygamyinheaven.htm

Tanner: It should be noted that the first seven presidents of the LDS Church practiced plural marriage. For example, my great-great grandfather Brigham Young was married to over 50 women and fathered at least 56 children. His successor was Apostle John Taylor, who had 14 wives and 36 children. 22 First Seven Presidents of the LDS Church were Polygamists
1. Joseph Smith, President from 1830-1844, at least 33 wives, 7 children by Emma, unknown if any by plural wives.
2. Brigham Young, President from 1847-1877, over 50 wives, 56 children.
3. John Taylor, President from 1880-1887, at least 14 wives, approx. 36 children.
4. Wilford Woodruff, President from 1889-1898, at least 10 wives, approx. 34 children.
5. Lorenzo Snow, President from 1898-1901, at least 9 wives, 33 children.
6. Joseph F. Smith, President from 1901-1918, 6 wives, 43 children.
7. Heber J. Grant, President from 1918-1945, 3 wives, 12 children. According to LDS doctrine, these men will have all of their faithful wives and children with them in the resurrection, which would mean they will be living polygamy in the Celestial Kingdom.

The LDS Church is trying desperately to convince the world that the LDS Church really didn't exist until 1890 when they sorta officially kinda put an end to the common practice of having...dirty old men marry themselves to young breeding stock.

Indeed. Not only did authors like B. Carmon Hardy document LDS leader hypocrisy in granting another known 260+ plural "marriages" between 1890-1910, but its sanctioning continued from the top down over several "prophets"--making the LDS "prophets" guilty of duplicity & rendering its office as unbelievable.

The following is a pretty good Q&A of basic info: http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/polygamy_summary.htm

Q. Did Mormons obey the Manifesto ending polygamy? A. >No, many did not. In fact, church President Joseph F. Smith's wives bore him 13 children after the Manifesto, even though he publicly testified he was not "cohabiting" with them. (Dialogue, Spring 1985, p.83) At least 3,300 children were born to Mormon men who married polygamously with official LDS Church authority from 1890 through 1904. (Dialogue, Spring 1985, pp. 3-104)

Q. What do you mean "with LDS Church authority?" Did the church sanction polygamy after the Manifesto? A. Yes, church leaders continued the practice. Many top church leaders, including apostles were known to have taken additional wives after the 1890 Manifesto. (Utah Historical Quarterly, Winter 1980, pp. 9, 19) There is also strong evidence that Church President Wilford Woodruff, 8 years after issuing the Manifesto outlawing polygamy, married a Madame Mountford in Sept. 1897. (Wilford Woodruff Journals, 1896-97)

[Elsie]

Amid confusion, LDS clarify faith

 

 

I challenge ANY MORMON's in these threads to CLARIFY just what was UNTRUE about PRESBYTERIANISM that Joseph Smith claimed to have LEARNED!

 

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http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

[Elsie]

Most states have laws which limit marriage to two people.

What??

I'm only married to ONE!!!

[Elsie]

It doesn’t matter if these two Churches ( LDS vs. FLDS) have been on separate tracks for 100 years, the Mormon Bashers get to place them under the same rug.

The Flds folks want to know when the LDS folks will get back on the CORRECT track!

Are they just gonna wait 'til they get to heaven?

[Elsie]

The Mormon Basher Evangelical has all the truth and every one else doesn’t have any.

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Jude 1:3

  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

 

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Romans 6:17
   But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.

 

 Romans 15:4
   For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

 

 Romans 16:17
   I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

 

1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

 

1 Corinthians 11:1-2
 1.  Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
 2.  I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,  just as I passed them on to you.

 

Ephesians 4:14
   Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

 

2 Thessalonians 3:6
   In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.

 

1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.

 

1 Timothy 2:7
   And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

 

1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

 

 2 Timothy 1:13
  What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.

 

2 Timothy 2:2
  And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

Hebrews 13:8-9
 8.  Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
 9.  Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them.

 

2 John 1:10
   If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.

 

Titus 2:1
  You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.

[Elsie]

please supply one...

[Elsie]

to take away our reproach.

[Elsie]

 

They hid them in the second sentence :).

Actually; they are LURKING in the SO FORTHS!!!

 

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Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

 

 

 

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

 

 

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
   
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
   
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
   
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
    
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
    
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
    
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

 

 

 

[Elsie]

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/clarifying-polygamy-confusion

 

Who is CONFUSED???

 

Why the FOUNDERS of MORMONISM!!!

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Smith

Young
	Taylor
	Pratt
	Snow
	Kimball
	Woodruff

 1 Timothy 3:2-3
 2.  Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
 3.  not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

 

 

1 Timothy 3:12
   A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.

 

 

 Titus 1:6
   An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.

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BEHOLD!!!!  The Restorative Power  of the Book of Mormon!!

 

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THE BOOK OF JACOB
THE BROTHER OF NEPHI

CHAPTER 2

 

  24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
  25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
  26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
  27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
  28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
  29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
  30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
  31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
  32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

 

 

[Elsie]

The Baptists also seem soft on Polygamy.

#7: YOU play defense.

[Elsie]

It does NOT say "LATTER" but "...in THAT day..."

(Where is that dude that always complains about a HALF-truth?)

[Elsie]

If Isaiah's God doesn't know of any gods besides Him, that's good enough for me.

The MORMON 'god' has TWO physical bodies!