Life in the real world (The evils of polygamy)

The Washington Times ^ | 04/25/2008 | Pete Vere

[najida]

Yep,
bait.

[Judith Anne]

No, prejudicial means that you want to ignore the rule of law, bypass the trial because you have already decided that they are guilty. Any defense is ignored. One pseudo-trial, and everyone gets tried at the same time. The laws that protect the accused are waived, you don't care what rights are trampled - as long as you can exact some vengeance, you are happy. It seems to be a fairly accurate assessment.

Men, on the other hand, tend to want the rule of law to prevail. Follow the law, and follow it exactly. Treat these people like you would anyone else, no special considerations, no special treatment. Everyone gets their day in court.

I think you've demonstrated a fine example of prejudicial thinking right here; note that it leads to ignoring reality...

[Hodar]

I hate to throw facts at you, but that big white building is a ‘Temple’. No sex has occurred in that building - that was an inaccurate early report. Services in a temple last several hours, the beds are there so that some people can lay down during a session. If you read later reports, this was made clear.

The men and women are not cooperating, because they have no reason to do so. The ‘outsiders’ invaded their property and lives based on a fake phone call. Based on that fake phone call, their property has been seized, their children taken from them, and their ‘Temple’ has been desecrated. Now, these same invaders are demanding to know who the parents are. Naturally, they are going to be as uncooperative as possible.

Justice will be done. This is why we have a legal system. However, emotional diatribes based upon bad data do no one any good. Am I the only one who remembers the Duke Lacrosse Team and that mess? How about the Child Daycare fiasco from the 90’s where children testified that they were killed and sacrificed on an alter - and innocent adults went to jail. That is what happens when people go off half-cocked, on an emotional diatribe.

Today, we have ~430 children between the ages of 2 and 17 that have been forcibly taken from their parents for over a week; all based on a prank phone call.

[Hodar]

Personally, I forsee this as the beginning of the end of the FLDS sects.

One would hope so. I am no fan of the FLDS - however I see a HUGE cash infusion from the taxpayers in Texas going into the FLDS coffers in the near future.

[najida]

Doubt it.

[Hodar]

I think you've demonstrated a fine example of prejudicial thinking right here; note that it leads to ignoring reality...

I'm ignoring reality? What reality are you reading? This is what I see

CPS officials have conceded there is no evidence the youngest children were abused, and about 130 of the children are under 5. Teenage boys were not physically or sexually abused either, according to evidence presented in a custody hearing earlier last week, but more than two dozen teenage boys are also in state custody, now staying at a boys' ranch that might typically house troubled or abandoned teens.

linky

When you take children away, you had better have a darn good reason. If the state of Texas released the ~154 children listed above, they would be on a bit more solid ground. From the article listed on Drudge, it appears that 154 out of the 432 (~35%) are being taken just because they can. This is where I see the lawyers having a field day at the taxpayer's expense.

[Hodar]

See post 126

[Politicalmom]

So you are arguing that they didn’t get “due process” and you have NO IDEA what legal procedures actually occurred.

That’s bright.

***
First search warrant affidavit:

http://www.courts.state.tx.us/yfzranch/pdf/Afft4SearchArrestWarrant.pdf
***

Second search warrant affidavit:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0410081polygamy1.html
***

Affidavit to request removal of the children:

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site297/2008/0408/20080408_033754_FLDS_Affidavit.pdf
***

Applicable law for child removal:

5240 Court-Ordered Removal after an Emergency Ex Parte Hearing

CPS September 2006

Law

When appropriate. The court may order [DFPS] to take possession of a child without the parents’ consent after an emergency ex parte hearing when

· there is an immediate danger to the physical health or safety of the child or the child has been a victim of neglect or sexual abuse; and

· there is no time, consistent with the physical health or safety of the child, for an adversary hearing or to make reasonable efforts to prevent or eliminate the need for the removal of the child.

Texas Family Code §262.101

Notes:

· “Danger to the physical health or safety of a child” includes exposure of the child to loss or injury in a manner that jeopardizes the health or safety of the child without regard to whether there has been an actual prior injury to the child.

Texas Family Code §101.009

· [In] determining whether there is an immediate danger to the physical health or safety of a child, the court may consider whether the child’s household includes a person who has

· abused or neglected another child in a manner that caused serious injury to or the death of the other child; or

· sexually abused another child.

Texas Family Code §262.102(b) (Brackets added.)

[Duration.] No emergency order for removal may remain in effect for more than 14 days unless it is extended by agreement of all parties, or if the court finds good cause pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure.

Texas Family Code §262.103

[Written notice. When [DFPS] takes possession of a child under an emergency order,] the department . . . must give written notice . . . to the child’s parent, conservator, or legal guardian.

***

Informal Transcripts from Day 1 of hearing:

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-ON-FLDS-CUSTODY/
***
(If anyone has a transcript of the second day, or a link to the Colorado affidavit purported to have evidence of hoax calls, I would appreciate the information.)

***
Gee. Looks like DUE PROCESS to me.

Then the appeals court found no fault with moving the kids to foster care.

[Judith Anne]

Today, we have ~430 children between the ages of 2 and 17 that have been forcibly taken from their parents for over a week; all based on a prank phone call.

Persistent willful ignorance, prejudice, clearly demonstrated. Thanks again.

Good night.

[hocndoc]

Math is your friend. 40 is too low. It’s an “another 25” on top of the 10 girls you write about plus the girls who were already known to be under 18 and already mothers and who have been placed in shelters with their children.

Statutory rape does not require a complaint, any more than murder does.

We changed our age of consent laws in ‘05, after we learned how often our parental notification laws were failing our daughters. The family code, the criminal code, and marriage laws were all different.

The State of Texas has determined statutory rape as sexual contact with minors under the age of 18, except with a legal spouse. It’s a defense if there are no more than 3 years difference in the age of the two. We changed the age of consent in ‘05 to make the Family Code and criminal code consistent and in light of the fact that when girls 15 to 17 have babies, the father is 5 or more years older 55% of the time. The ratio is even higher for girls under 15.

As I believe Judith Anne told you, the law allows that all children from a given address be taken out of danger. If you read the article in the original post, you’ll see that the accusation is that the men don’t wait for puberty or stop with the girls. Several of the news reports have mentioned that the kids from El Dorado “can’t or won’t” identify their mothers and fathers.

Besides, since the men aren’t claiming their children and “wives,” and since the women and children gave different names and relationships at the ranch, on the buses, and then at the shelters, the State must wait for DNA evidence to sort the genetic relationships out.

[hocndoc]

There’s still dispute about those beds. There was an informant working with the Sheriff.

And your emotions are showing.

[GovernmentShrinker]

There is so much evidence against this cult that it’s really preposterous to suggest that there was insufficient evidence to go in and take these children. The situation was problematic in the Utah-Arizona community because there is no compound, and there are a significant number of ex-members and fringe members living within the same geographic boundaries. That makes it very difficult to pin anything on the community as a whole, because it’s not clear who’s a member of the crime-committing religious group and who’s not. A lot of ex-members won’t rock the boat because they fear retaliation against relatives still in it, and/or fear loss of whatever contact they may still have with relatives who are still in. But if they’re ex-members they’re no longer participating in the criminal activity themselves, and can’t legally be included in a mass round-up. And authorities can’t really tell who’s who.

The Texas ranch was an enclosed compound, with locked gates, one or more watchtowers, and a leader who had identified himself as such to the local authorities. There were no distinct “family” homes, as there are in the Utah-Arizona community. That makes it quite reasonable to classify all persons inside the compound as participants in and/or victims of what is well-known to be a criminal enterprise.

There are all sort of strange insular groups around the country, but the only ones getting raided and having adults and children rounded up are those known to be practicing sexual abuse of minors and/or severe physical abuse of minors. If police show up at your home based on an anonymous caller’s allegations, they aren’t going to find obviously pregnant and/or nursing adolescent girls, and parents claiming to be lovingly devoted to their large hordes of children while 80-90% of the male children are patently missing. If they try to haul away your kids because you’re homeschooling, don’t have a TV, and your wife and daughters wear old-fashioned clothes, then you’ll have plenty of defenders, including me. But that’s just not what’s going on in the FLDS case.

[metmom]

I don’t see what is in it for the guys? Did people find any of those women atractive? My Gooness. It was the biggest does of anti-viagra one could imagine. But that’s just me.

Have you seen what the men look like, like Warren Jeffs? And you wonder why everything in this cult is forced?

[Hodar]

When someone makes a comment, without regard to the truthfullness of it; it's frustrating.

Do you have sex in your church? Do you know of anyone who has sex in their church, synagogue or temple? Bear in mind, this entire fiasco is based on a prank phone call.

"Historically, the only use of a bed in a temple is for temple worship itself," said Walsh, who said he has studied the FLDS practices for 18 years. "The worship lasts a couple of hours, so all the temples will have a place where someone can lie down."
linky

Walsh said he had never been in the FLDS temple, but assumed it was set up like temples used by the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Those typically have beds available in case people doing temple work - marriage ceremonies, baptisms for the dead - become faint or feel ill. It is common for members to fast before entering, Walsh said, and temple sessions often last several hours.
link

So, let's put on the rational thinking hat. The temple is the heart of their religion. They would no more desecrate their temple by having sex in that building than you or I would use the alter of your church for sex. When the police have an informant, I am suspect - bear in mind this whole mess started with a bogus phone call. I believe the 'informant' wants to make the FLDS look as bad as he possibly can. This shouldn't be that hard of a task, for the FLDS have done most of the work for him.

In dealing with matters like this, it's always best to go with known facts, not supposition and 'what-ifs'.

The entire warrant that was issues may be thrown out, simply because it was granted under a unsubstantiated and bogus phone call. If I make a bogus call and report Billy-bob for selling drugs - and the police bust down his door and find a car chop-shop. All evidence gathered is thrown out. Billy-bob gets off free.

Add to this the fact that ~35% of the children taken by the CPS are not 'at risk'. This isn't my allegation, this is what the CPS conceded to the judge earlier this week. Why ~150 kids are still being held is a matter I do not pretend to understand. But, taking and holding ~150 children from their homes opens the doors to a number of lawsuits.

From the FLDS point of view, I think they are going to get a HUGE donation from the state of Texas in the not too distant future. We have a bogus search warrant, emotional damage done to ~400 children and parents, seizure of FLDS property based upon the bogus warrant, and I'm sure the legal teams will find plenty of other charges.

Texas stepped in it, with both feet, then wiped their shoes off on Grandma's curtains. There's gonna be hell to pay.

[GovernmentShrinker]

I think the beginning of the end had already occurred prior the YFZ round-up. There was a major schism in the British Columbia community within the past year or two, as the long time bishop Winston Blackmore split from Warren Jeffs and large chunk of the FLDS members are now loyal to Blackmore, and not Jeffs. Then there’s the little matter of Jeffs being locked up in a Utah prison (actually, he’s temporarily residing in an Arizona prison, pending trial there in charges more numerous and serious than those he was convicted of in Utah). Jeffs is still giving orders from prison, but obviously the door is open to the men transmitting the orders to do their own filtering of Jeff’s directives, attribute things to Jeffs that he didn’t say, etc.

The YFZ round-up is important though, especially in its psychological effect on the Utah-Arizona members and remaining Jeffs loyalists in British Columbia. YFZ was supposed to be the pinnacle of the church’s work on earth — the wonderful Zion that all members yearned to move to and were overjoyed to see their children shipped off to. The most obedient, loyal, and hard-working members were rewarded with relocation to YFZ. Now those exemplary members who followed Jeffs orders to the tee and got the big reward of moving to Zion are in the hands of Satan’s agents. What to aspire to now?

[Hodar]

There is so much evidence against this cult that it’s really preposterous to suggest that there was insufficient evidence to go in and take these children.

On the surface, I agree. However, children and parents are typically interviewed during a CPS investigation. This did not occur. Further, ~150 out of the 460 children have been presented to the court as NOT being at risk - by CPS. If 150 children (mostly the under 5 group) are classified as 'not at risk' by the CPS, why are they still being kept from their parents?

And authorities can’t really tell who’s who.

That's why we have a police force. We do not wholesale arrest everyone in a neighborhood block because we suspect that some of the inhabitants may be criminals. We investigate, then we arrest the suspects, have a trial, and so forth.

If police show up at your home based on an anonymous caller’s allegations, they aren’t going to find obviously pregnant and/or nursing adolescent girls...

Have you been to a high school lately? Having a room full of pregnant girls is not a crime, unless your state is different from mine.

I'm not a fan of the FLDS - but I do think that several basic steps have been skipped over. First off, the whole search warrant was based on an unsubstantiated and bogus phone call. That alone 'should' make any material evidence gathered inadmissible in any court.

There is a correct way to do things, and an incorrect way. It appears that Texas screwed the pooch. Taking ALL the children away from the FLDS was a major screw up.

Not all FLDS members practice polygamy. Some are single, some have regular nuclear families - but all had their children taken away, despite CPS admitting to the judge that ~150 of them were not considered to be 'at risk'. I see that as a pretty big problem.

[Politicalmom]

You are simply lying, and ignoring the list of “due process” that I posted to you.

There WERE interviews conducted while still on the compound. The children were not removed until the second day. They interviewed all night.

[Politicalmom]

Apparently. Still posting FALSE information after I provided all the affidavits, court testimony, and pertinent law.

[hocndoc]

Rational does not equal the stories told in the original post, much less 14 year old pregnant “brides” or 400+ children who can’t or won’t name their fathers.

[Hodar]

Let's look at the time line. This is a fact.

You are stating, and you believe that a crack team of bureaucrats competently and accurately sieged the FLDS ranch, all 1,700 acres; rounded everyone up, and among other things held hearings on the fates of 167 children? These are the same type of workers that populate the Texas Drivers License bureaus. So, you know how fast they work. Now let's ask ourselves another question.

Let's suppose, for the sake of argument that the children should be removed. Are they safer with CPS?

"I am here today to release disturbing information found during my investigation about the deaths, poisonings, rapes and pregnancies of children in our state's foster care system. "I found, from information provided by the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, in Fiscal 2003, 30 foster children died in our state's care; in Fiscal 2004, 38 foster children died; and in Fiscal 2005, 48 foster children died.

http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html "Data shows that while the number of foster children in our state's care increased 24 percent from 26,133 in Fiscal 2003 to 32,474 in Fiscal 2005, the number of deaths increased 60 percent.

"If you compare the number of deaths of children in our state's population to the number of deaths in our state's foster care system, a child is four times more likely to die in our state's foster care system.

"Based on Fiscal 2004 data provided by the Health and Human Services Commission, about 100 children received treatment for poisoning from medications; 63 foster children received medical treatment for rape that occurred while in the foster care system; and 142 children gave birth while in the state foster care system.