Posted on 04/22/2008 8:49:09 AM PDT by mjp
Ian Clifford wants to start a global revolution by building a practical, everyday car with no gasoline engine, no batteries, and no emissions. While big Detroit automakers ponder a future plug-in car that goes 40 miles on a battery charge before its gas engine kicks in, Mr. Clifford's tiny ZENN Motor, a Toronto maker of low-speed electric cars, announced in March that it will build a new highway-speed (80 m.p.h.) model that goes 250 miles on a charge – and can recharge in just five minutes. Having no batteries, the new "cityZENN" model will use a breakthrough version of a common electrical storage device called an ultracapacitor to store power from a wall socket, the company says. Fuel costs to operate it would be about one-tenth of today's gas-powered vehicle. If that astounding claim is real (and there are many skeptics), it could revolutionize automotive travel by making all-electric cars competitive with gas-powered vehicles and easing the world's dependence on oil.
(Excerpt) Read more at csmonitor.com ...
I don't think anyone is realistically planning on a Home Depot extension cord! =)
Minimum residential service everywhere is 220V @ 125A. Can be 200A or more depending.
It's not 1800 Watts, but 25kVA to 50kVA that you have to work with.
WILL THEY be able to make a meaningful distance+top speed tradeoffs off of a nighttime residential service recharge? Remains to be seen.
Since the weak link in the charging is the source rather than the capacitor, what about “Gas stations” with connection and ability to actually recharge the “200 to 300 mile range” capacitor in five to ten minutes? Is it still not practical. I am out of my area of knowledge regarding maximum current flow and melting metal, contacts, etc...
If everyone in the country is doing this, how does it affect the power grid.
It's amazing the number of people who think otherwise.
Very rapid charges would be useful — and even feasible — at car charging stations, which would operate like today's gas stations. On a road trip, we'd pull up to the plug (probably an induction paddle) and fill up. The station would need a bank of ultracapacitors to store up a charge between customers & it would need to be connected to a high voltage power line.
For charging at home — we don't even need a fast charge. In fact, electric power would likely be sold cheaper during off-peak hours; so we'd be charging overnight. Quick charges at a station — slow charges at home.
Ultracapacitors are more likely to appear in plug-in hybrids; to handle the rapid charging and discharging from braking and accelerating, respectively. They would prolong the battery's life a lot. Batteries are better at long-term storage.
Some types of caps do wear out.
Ask any of us who restore antique radios. #1 failure component (after the vacuum tubes) are the old caps.
The energy must come from somewhere...
Recharging the Ultra-capacitor sufficiently to drive 250mi.
in 5 minutes would require an amperage from Hades
God help you if you short out the capacitor...
Excellent reality check. Even if he were referring to a 240VAC outlet running 50 amps we are only talking about 11.5kw. A mere 15.4 hp.
Yeah, five minutes from a wall socket. Sure.
Minimum CURRENT residential service is 240 @ 125A.
But there are lots of older homes with 100A or even 60A service. And let’s not even begin to talk about apartments and condo’s.
Further, have you seen what sort of cable and connectors are required to provide connections for 240 @ 200? It ain’t going to be something most homeowners want to mess with, to be sure.
Oh - yea — and what are they supposed to do with the rest of their household demand (like cooking, washing, lights, etc) while they’re diverting the majority of their household 200A service into charging their car?
No dice. He’s full of crap. No matter how you slice it, you cannot get enough power out of a household service drop in “five minutes” to charge his “ultracapacitor” to take even a go-kart 250 miles at 80MPH.
There’s basic laws of thermo and physics going on here, and he’s claiming to be able to break all of them.
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A national automotive infrastructure based on ultracapacitors may or may not be an irrational idea, but ultra-caps are NOT magic....unless you think physics is magic.
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Ultracapacitors are indeed real devices. They are “magic” when people who are either ignorant or careless attribute to them results that defy physics, such as when pre-charging them from a coal-burning source enables the vehicle to not burn its own fuel for short trips and thus get amazing gas mileage.
Let's run high tension power lines to everybody's house - bet the enviro-whackos will love those electrical fields coursing about.
I think the average non-tech type fails to realize the storage power of liquid petroleum fuels.
If you want to boost the voltage to keep the current under 300 amps, then it might be possible. 200 to 300 amps are what you will find is your limitation in a “low voltage” (ie, under 600 volts, AC) panel.
When you get above 300 amps, typical electrical installations will boost the voltage. Next stop above 480 3-phase would be 4180 volts, three-phase. That’s not something you’re going to want to handle in an plug-in device.
Heck, most people won’t want to mess with 480V 3-ph as a “plug-in” device. Any mistake in wiring or faults in the connectors and whoever is playing electron-pump jockey is dead as a wedge or has his hands/feet blown off.
A gallon of gasoline contains 130.88 MJ of energy, or the equivalent of 36.4 KwH. At an estimated price of 10 cents per KwH, you would need $3.60 worth of electricity to equal the energy in 1 gallon of gasoline
It becomes cost effective because an electric motor converts power into motion more efficiently than a gasoline engine does, but electricity is not free
Need more solar, wind, hydroelectric, nuclear, etc. sources of power. Not to mention sources we have not even thought of.
I knew an engineer some years ago who had plans for a conventional electric car high speed recharging system. Basically inserting a giant three pronged electrical plug into a socket on the front of the car. Each of the prongs would be a thick copper bar, and all three would be cooled with liquid nitrogen.
This would permit a high amperage charge of the vehicle, while the cold copper rods would keep both themselves and the vehicle cool during the transfer.
It becomes far more practical with an ultracapacitor.
Capacitor tech has really had some leaps in the last 20 years. The US Army rail gun became possible because they figured out how to reduce a capacitor that would have needed a railroad flatcar to move, down to about the size of a suitcase.
Do they wear out due to aging (like a car rusts out) or due to wear (like a cars tires have to be replaced)? Just wondering if it is time, or use, that does the damage.
Please count me among them.
And we have the winner! Full load short or dielectric failure and the 'Boom!' is gonna be hot, loud, and filled with nasty shrapnel.
Not to mention hysterisis melting, and other unpleasent side issues at these energy levels. One might make the case for EMP effects, too...
Just a guess, but think of somewhere between the effect of a Mk.81 or Mk.82 GP Frag bomb. In every driveway/garage.
On the other hand, 18 to 20 gallons of gas is nothing to sneeze at ... but I still thing the Boom! isn't as bad.
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