Oh, brother. Glad I came in on the tail end of this one.
Nice commentary, people, as usual. It was very helpful.
Posted on 04/22/2008 6:54:26 AM PDT by forkinsocket
Jews believe in the peace for various reasons. Some Jews are plainly self-hating, and just want a trouble for the Jewish state. Others are too tired of war, and just want to close their eyes to see the ivory tower of peace and happy relations between Jews, Egyptians, Iranians and whoever else. Some are primitive rationalists – look at the numbers of Jews in the utopian movements such as the communist one – and believe that every human problem, however immensely complex, can be reduced to a formula, discussed, and settled. Some politicians are crooks who use peace process to fool the masses into electing them. Some, notably the security establishment officials, see clearly that military methods fail to solve the problem, and opt for peace settlement. They just don’t realize that even in mathematics, and surely in social relations, some problems are inherently unsolvable. Or it may be the other way around: the leftist Israeli establishment appoints the brainwashed ultra-leftists for security positions, and naturally they support the hollow peace.
So instead of seeking an immediate solution, which ought to be wrong, Jews must accept the reality of intermittent low-level conflict which would drag on for the foreseeable future. We really don’t know what would happen in a few decades. Improvements in nuclear power generation can devaluate oil, causing immense poverty and hunger in overpopulated Arab countries. Such a scenario would increase the number of desperate terrorists but diminish the threat by impoverished regular Arab armies.
Arabs might get nuclear weapons, and surely leak them to terrorists who might or might not detonate them in Israel. That threat would only increase if peace agreements are signed, as Israel will find it diplomatically hard to preempt against friendly Arabs’ nuclear facilities.
Arabs might breed in Israel to the third of voters, join coalition with Jewish ultra-left and non-Jewish parties, and vote Jewish state out of existence, thus solving the problem of coexistence with Arabs. Or Jews might drive the hostile elements out of Israel.
There are so many unknown variables in the peace process that trying to predict it amounts to nonsense. Some things, however, are easy to understand. The Arabs don’t need peace with Israel: both peace and its absence are fine with them. They don’t need Israel’s assistance and don’t fear her attacks. Peace treaty won’t change the Arab behavior: they will continue supporting anti-Israeli terrorists if only to drain their countries of radicals and won’t entrust Israel to be a vizier of Muslim funds (economic cooperation). The only substantial economic feature that would come out of Israeli-Arab peace is heavy investment by Muslims in the politically sensitive Israeli real estate, the process which is well underway now and only waiting to be legalized.
Arabs, being completely indifferent to the peace process, offer Israel no concessions: Judea and Samaria must be abandoned, Jerusalem divided, and the refugees – compensated, with some of them allowed returning to Israel. That’s not really a peace plan, but an odd demand for capitulation of a victorious power to the defeated aggressors.
Israel, on the contrary, gives way continuously and receives nothing in return. Arabs did not reciprocate the evacuation of Jewish settlements from Gaza, a major step which divided Jewish nation and left a scar for decades. Rather, Arabs intensified their attacks on Israel. Superficially, that applies to Palestinian militants only, but they enjoy support of every major Muslim state: Syria (weapons), Iran (money and training), Egypt (logistics), and Saudi Arabia (money and diplomatic support).
Back in 1972, Sadat offered Israel peace with all Arabs in return for the Sinai and the Golan Heights, with no heed paid to the Palestinian state. Recently, Saudis offered Israel peace with all Arabs in return for Judea, Samaria, and Jerusalem. Now Israel negotiates with the Palestinians minute details of transferring them Judea, Samaria, and Jerusalem without expecting reciprocal peace with Arabs countries. The terms become progressively worse.
But the real peace problem, it’s not without, it’s within Israel. Israeli Arabs form a third of Israel’s young and absolute majority in several regions. The Jewish state now abandons religiously, historically, and strategically important lands to the Palestinian state so as not to be swarmed by two million Arabs living there. Reduced to the nine-mile-wide beachside state, Israel will be swarmed by her own Arabs – who accept no peace process. It is an official policy of the PLO – indeed, a democratic maxim – that the Palestinians will breed to majority in Israel and then vote to unify it with the West Bank Palestine. Moderates among Palestinians proclaim they have no problem with Jews living in the resulting Arab state.
Time solves the insolvable problems. Communism vanished from the book of time, leftist terrorism of 1970s ran to the end, and Islamic terrorism won’t be eternal. Radical ideas do not last long as burning societies fall back into tranquility. The current levels of Palestinian terrorism are artificial, entirely propped by Beilin-Peres policies which brought the defeated PLO from Tunisia to the West Bank, enthroned it, subsidized heavily, and promoted internationally as a peace partner. So a shabby cat felt itself a lion. Palestinians support fighting Israel for two reasons: hope and hopelessness. A hope to prevail, and daily hopelessness of their lives. Both can be solved, by the overwhelming force and emigration, respectively. The Muslim Brotherhood, PLO, Hamas, in turn became political organizations; other guerrillas will follow the same road. Palestinians will always remain hostile to Israel, as Jews took over what the Palestinians think is their land. Such hostility would translate into low-level sabotage, but not a meaningful war.
The peace process lacks a historical precedent. Never did hostile states negotiated peace for decades under fire. Peace never came through negotiations, but only through one side’s defeat. America negotiated with Vietnam for decades, but Vietnam was not at war with America; North Vietnam was at war with the South – and utterly defeated it. So the peace process failed in Vietnam, like elsewhere. Peace process is a leftist fallacy, a primitive rationalist approach to immensely complex problems which in fact can be exhausted, but never solved.
Exhausting the Palestinian problem is easy, and Israel did it with success: behead the national organizations, expel their leaders, everyone of the slightest stance in Palestinian society. No great numbers are involved: ousting a few thousand top members of Fatah, Hamas, and other popular organizations would do. When Israel kept systematically expelling PLO associates in 1960-80s, everything was quiet on our Western Front. Even though the PLO tried ruling Palestine through its Department of Popular Organizations which oversaw everything down to students unions, it was nothing compared to the electrifying fact of Arafat’s presence in the West Bank. Beilin-Peres clique brought Arafat from Tunisia to the West Bank, literally let the jinn of terrorism out of the bottle. They meant good, they meant Arafat to be their peace puppet. So they were wrong. As usual, societies pay in blood for leftists’ crumbling projects.
The majority of the Netherlands’ population was good to Jews during Holocaust. But the problem is, the Dutch were also good toward their minority who collaborated with Germans. The minority hunted us, and so 75% of Jews were murdered. The majority of Israelis are decent Jews who wish their country well. But unless they stand up to the vicious leftist minority, too few Jews would survive in Israel.
They swarmed into Rafah because they are an out-of-control mob of rampaging savages, and Hamas made sure the news crews were in place.
FYI, starving people do not load up on cigarettes, king-size matresses, and wide-screen TV's.
I’m not surprised that Hamas, being as bad as it is, would engineer the cutting of the wall at the border that enabled thousands to stream into Egypt.
The issue is the blockade that Israel imposed as collective punishment on all Gazan civilians, which I got the impression that you have denied; right?
The issue is the blockade that Israel imposed in order to protect her own citizens from terrorist attacks. Gaza civilians (who overwhelmingly voted for Hamas) get free food from the UN, they are the fattest "starving people" you ever saw, and they swarmed into Egypt for CHEAP CIGARETTES.
FYI, Israel continues to provide fuel to Gaza in spite of Hamas attacking the fuel depot and shooting at fuel convoys.
I'm getting bored of your stupidity, I'm now going to watch the election returns.
Oh, brother. Glad I came in on the tail end of this one.
Nice commentary, people, as usual. It was very helpful.
“FYI, Israel continues to provide fuel to Gaza in spite of Hamas attacking the fuel depot and shooting at fuel convoys.”
Don’t you ever get tired of being wrong?
“’As far as I’m concerned, all the residents of Gaza can walk and have no fuel for their cars, because they have a murderous terrorist regime that doesn’t allow people in the south of Israel to live in peace,’ Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said before Barak’s decision (to temporarily ease the blockade) was announced.”
Do you really believe that thousands of Gazans streamed into Egypt just to buy wide-screen TVs, where they were marked up?
There are just some folks who just don’t get the message that our forum does not welcome them to come in and keep spewing their stuff. Even after numerous members have tried to explain things to them.
The hell with fictional “international law”. Collective punishment & collective responsibility is an integral part of Middle Eastern culture. The Palestinian theatrics over collective punishment are meant for silly Westerners.
Hi mkjessup,
Sadly, there are those people who come on this forum and give Christians and Virginians a bad name. If they want to have their supercessionism, that is their freedom of choice. All I am is a Christian that has loved Israel for most of my life, regadless of which denomination I’ve ben in, and has believed that God did not toss them aside or revoke His Convenant promises to them. If He had done so, how could I, as a Christian, trust in the promises of the New Testament. I let everyone else argue about supercessionism vs. dispensationalism, etc., etc. I simply support Israel and the Jewish people because God has never stopped loving them and because the One I believe is the promised Messiah chose to be born a Jewish boy of a Jewish woman and foster father in the land of Israel some 2000 years ago. And everyone of the apostles that brought the Gospel to the Gentiles were Jewish.
If God had indeed decided to be through with them, they would long ago have disappeared, assimilated into other peoples. Where are the ancient Assyrians, Ammonites, etc. today? Gone. If the Lord was through with Israel and the Jewish people, then why were they preserved in spite of the odds, so many evil persecutions, etc.? Why did the Lord permit the nation of Israel to be re-established, even though most of the founders were not religious? Why has He permitted Israel to stand against great odds for 60 years? The only answer is that He still loves them, they are a part of His Plan in some way which we trust Him on in the Virtue of Faith; He is not finished with them, just as He is not finished with us Christians, He cherishes them, and so forth.
Granted, my views are that of a Christian, so I know that some of what I’ve said would not be agreed with by my Jewish friends. No matter. Push come to shove, I will stand by what I have believed and held dear for most of my life, and if in some people’s eyes, that means I may fry in Hell...well, if I have to choose between some of my “christian brothers and sisters” or the Almighty, then I will take my chances with the Almighty.
To my Jewish friends, I am sorry that there are some “christians” who seem to relish coming on this forum every so often to make in the fountain and persist in doing so even after numerous people have over and over made clear that their stuff is not appreciated or welcome. Not all of us are like that. Some people, sadly, seem to go out of their way to give Christians a bad name when there is no call to do so. Some people just plain didn’t have any raising from their mothers and fathers.
Oooops....my #88 was for you to read as well.
“It is not the Jews’ fault they are being shot at.”
Well it partly is, as the article claims the leftists are the majority of the Israeli government. Leftists will concede anything for promises of peace.
Looks like you put your foot in your mouth in a big way.
Heh, they actually still exist. I know many. They live primarily in Iraq & Syria. Because they are Christians now, they are in the process of being chased out of Iraq & seeking asylum elsewhere. Ironically, they are very friendly to Jews & supportive of Israel.
“I guess they just did that for the news cameras.”
They went there to get more morters to fire at Israel.
Just wondering ? Are you a Pali going to school at USC?
David Horowitz has been warning about campus jihad and you seem to be confirming it.
Let me ask you a few simple questions:
God is almighty, creator of heaven and earth...right?
God is infallable...right?
God is all-knowing, the master of the universe, etc...right?
My simple question is why does such a perfect all-powerful being need to be worshiped? Why would he care or demmand it? He will punish you if you don’t worship him? Does that make any sense at all? He needs a tiny, fly-speck, drop of protein and water (compared to the infinite vastness of the universe)to worship him? I don’t get it.
“The hell with fictional ‘international law’. Collective punishment & collective responsibility is an integral part of Middle Eastern culture. The Palestinian theatrics over collective punishment are meant for silly Westerners.”
I guess it’s okay, then, since muslims do it too. We silly Westerners just don’t understand how punishing 1.5 million civilians for the actions of Hamas is either smart or justifiable.
How is that approach working for Israel, btw? Are Gazans turning against Hamas now or even more against Israel?
Exactly. Best stay out of Middle Eastern business & avoid more problems.
How is that approach working for Israel, btw?
Ha, if only Israel had the will & presence of mind to actually punish them collectively for more than a couple of days. Arabs will be hating Israel for a long time, it is a stupid waste of energy to try to make them "hate us less". They must fear.
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