Posted on 04/21/2008 6:19:21 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
SAN ANGELO, Texas — A judge wants attorneys representing FLDS mothers and children to ask local LDS congregations if they would be willing to "provide a buffer" for FLDS members who wish to pray in groups at a temporary shelter. Judge Barbara Walther made the decision late Monday afternoon at a hearing to address three issues brought by attorneys representing mothers of children who remain in a state shelter. A total of 416 children were removed from the Fundamentalist LDS Church's YFZ Ranch earlier this month as part of a child-abuse investigation.
The group of mothers filed court papers earlier Monday demanding their rights to pray in private without having a Texas Department of Family and Protective Services worker overseeing them. They also filed a motion asking the judge to allow them to stay with their nursing children and asked for access to telephones to communicate with their attorneys.
Addressing the concerns about prayer, Walther said she was aware of a community of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in San Angelo. While acknowledging LDS Church members are not from the same group, she asked attorneys to see if the LDS faith would be willing to monitor the prayer services of the women and children who remain in the shelter.
"How would I stop someone from practicing their faith?" the judge asked. She acknowledged concerns from Texas child welfare authorities about improper communications between mothers and children that could occur in such private prayer times and have an affect on the pending investigations.
"If they cross the line or coach the child or make any kind of comment on litigation, all bets are off," Walther said.
The president of the LDS Abilene Texas Stake, which oversees San Angelo, was surprised by the judge's request.
"They think we're the same ones because we use the Book of Mormon," said Charles L. Webb. "I'm dumbfounded they would suggest that."
Webb plans to contact church headquarters in Salt Lake City for guidance.
The judge did say if that fails, she would look at other options.
Regarding breast-feeding, the judge said attorneys ad litem should be working with Texas child protective services workers in mediation to solve that problem, declining to consider the motion to order that nursing mothers remain in the shelter with their children.
Last week, mothers of children over 4 years old were separated from their children and sent back to their homes. Texas child welfare officials have said the mothers that remain with their young children in the temporary shelters will eventually be separated as foster families and foster homes are located.
On the issue of the FLDS women and children being allowed contact with attorneys, the judge ordered eight phone lines to be set up — six for the children and two for the mothers — with 24-hour access to their attorneys.
Lawyers for Department of Family and Protective Services said they had already set up the phone lines earlier Monday.
At the end of the hearing, an attorney asked the judge to consider her motion to stop the separation of mothers from their children. The judge said she hadn't seen the motion, noting that she had a large stack of motions to go over.
When the attorney pressed her to consider it immediately, Walther stood up and announced, "Ladies and gentleman, this hearing is concluded," and abruptly left the bench.
In the motion, attorney Andrea Sloan asked the judge to allow the women and children 30 minutes in the morning and again at night to pray in private. "Without exception, respondent mothers have reported that the department will not let them pray without being monitored by the department," Sloan wrote.
Attorneys were also pushing to keep a group of nursing mothers from being separated from their children, pending the results of DNA testing currently under way in San Angelo. "Some of respondent mothers are currently parenting children under the age of 2 years of age and are still breast-feeding," the motion stated.
The women's attorneys also filed motions arguing that when cell phones were taken from the women, they lost the ability to communicate effectively with their clients. The cell phones were taken the day after members of the FLDS Church inside the Fort Concho shelter spoke out to the Deseret News, complaining of cramped conditions.
The women provided the Deseret News with photographs taken by a cell phone to show the conditions. Shortly afterward, they were all moved to the San Angelo Coliseum, where some of the children have remained.
The motions were filed in 51st District Court today by attorneys for Charlotte Johnson, Suzanne Johnson, Sarah Johnson, Angela Harker and other mothers of children taken from the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado.
Authorities began collecting DNA samples Monday morning from children taken from the ranch, the Texas Attorney General's Office said.
The children were to be given a cheek swab, then photographed and fingerprinted. They have each been assigned a number to identify them and the sample they gave.
"We began the process this morning and anticipate working on this throughout the week," said Janece Rolfe, a spokeswoman for the Texas attorney general. "It will be about 30 days to receive results, maybe a little longer."
Judge Barbara Walther signed court papers this morning ordering the DNA samples.
"The Court finds that an unknown number of males of reproductive age reside, or have resided, at the ranch during the probable time of conception of one or more of the children the subject of this suit," her order says. "The court further finds that an unknown number of females of child bearing age reside, or have resided at the ranch and could be the mother of one or more children the subject of this suit."
The order lists the hundreds of names of parents and children that are known at the YFZ Ranch, including FLDS leader Warren Jeffs, who it lists as being in "prison."
The parents on the YFZ Ranch are expected to show up at the Schleicher County Memorial Building in Eldorado on Tuesday to give a DNA sample. At the makeshift shelter at the San Angelo Coliseum and the Cal Farley Boy's Ranch, where the FLDS children have been staying since they were taken into state custody, children were giving samples.
The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services said it is still having trouble identifying individual children and who their parents are.
"We're still not getting names," said child protective services spokesman Greg Cunningham. "We don't know who are siblings, mothers, fathers."
The raid on the YFZ Ranch was prompted by a phone call to a San Angelo family crisis center from a 16-year-old girl who claimed she was abused, pregnant and married to a 50-year-old man. Authorities have not been able to identify her, but said that when they went onto the ranch to investigate the complaint they found signs of other children being abused.
That led to the judge's order removing all 416 children from the ranch. Last week, Walther ordered that all children will remain in state custody.
Once the DNA samples are gathered, Cunningham said they will move forward with placing the children in foster care.
"We've got some of the placements lined up, but we're still waiting for some guidance from the court," he said.
Child protective services said the children will be kept in groups, including teenage mothers with their children and siblings grouped together. The children would likely not be going to a typical foster home, Cunningham said.
"It's a home-type setting. A majority of them would go to a residential facility," he said. "There are several different options out there."
Authorities refused to discuss how the children would be transitioned from the San Angelo Coliseum to foster care because of security reasons.
Outside the coliseum today, the police presence has been heavy. Texas state troopers, Tom Green County sheriff's deputies, San Angelo police and unmarked patrol cars have all been seen circling the large parking lot surrounding the building.
They are in a quandry. They don’t like polygamy but they have to accept that it was practiced by the Dear Leader. Condemning the practice would put them in danger of criticizing the founders.
It’s a hard line to walk.
Recalling a Christian story for you (I'm sure you know them all) there was this gentleman who'd been attacked by thieves and left in a ditch. A priest on his way to do priestly duties saw the man, but passed by on the other side since he had to tend to those very important spiritual obligations before he could do anything about the man in the ditch (else he'd been ritually impure if he got involved at that time ~ a point somehow left out of the text, but certainly understood in Jesus' day).
Next down the road was another guy with a different religious affiliation but still within the same general Jewish Temple worship milieu. Unfortunately he also had certain legal obligations and he couldn't soil himself at the moment ~ rules is rules eh!
Finally, along comes the dirty old Samaritan ~ a man given to no (Jewish) rules ~ and some people thought he probably didn't even worship the true God he was so outside the established standards ~ and he stopped and aided the man. Even checked him into a lodging place; tended to his wounds; gave him money, and promised to check back on him later.
Somewhere in there is the reason why you do not wish to tend to the F(lds) formerly in the bosom of your own church. The judge should have looked to the story of the Good Samaritan for guidance ~ maybe brought in some Catholics to assist the Baptists in caring for these wayward excommunicants.
I'm thinking the Missionaries of Charity might be willing to go to these people no one seems to want but the law.
I can think of two who have said that polygamy is beautiful and Biblical.
That is defending this sick cult.
You got it!
LOL.
I just love how you put that. So true.
I'm afraid the F(lds) is so "outcast" no one is going to be able to tend to their spiritual needs, particularly not folks with a history of and a religious hangup over polygamy.
touche’
And a story that I must remind myself of often.
So, fellow Freepers, how do we treat the wounds of these injured people way out there in Texas.
So, fellow Freepers, how do we treat the wounds of these injured people way out there in Texas.
“Does it bother anyone that the children don’t even know who their parents are?”
My take has been how can anyone say a child has been taken from a parent when no parent has identified their child and no child has identified their parent. It’s just a sick set of women and “men” who won’t identify their children.
God is working, even in this mess. He uses the evil things of this world for good.
Those precious innocent children need help. They may need family, they may come to need “mainstream,” but modest clothing. They will need books.
As will the mothers. They will need modest but more modern clothing if they are to move into society. They will need mentoring, schooling and counseling.
They may come to need housing, transportation, jobs.
Think freepers. What would God have us each do.
I was raised Mormon, in Southern Utah and married at 17. At 24 I found myself alone with three children and no education. I'm sure I could mentor some women, possibly take in some children into my five bedroom, three bath, house that is now vacant and empty of children.
Would it disrupt my life? Certainly. Would it be what God would want of me? Perhaps. I will go to Him in prayer.
At least they were honest. Mormon’s can’t come out against polygamy because they can’t wait to get to their heaven and finally LIVE the principle.
Thank you for that, muawiyah.
Nah, everyone else is unclean to them from a religious standpoint.
From a rational standpoint, they are in a real pickle. They have been raised to take orders, believe in polygamy and accept child marriage. They now need to learn how to lie about these beliefs. They have also been trained to eschew emotion and they need to show it now to make their stories believable. It is probably very hard for them. Not only that, they need to heard the cats (young wives) who may be entertaining thoughts of freedom.
You are dealing with people who say they are Christians but don’t believe in Grace. That’s a hard nut to crack.
I see in your post that the star witness does NOT address the fact that there is no way to verify just who the parents are of each individual child...or do you advocate just taking the word of the adult and washing hands of responsibility for them?
What's to stop these self proclaimed "parents" from immediately taking the children and disappearing behind the walls of another of the cult's communities, to be enmeshed in the same abusive practices?
Utah, Arizona, Colorado, Canada all have these FLDS communities, and the nightmare of trying to end this child-rape is exacerbated by the laxity in addressing it of UT and AZ due to political expediency.
Why not withhold your condemnation of the state until the DNA tests are done, there is a method of placing the children with rightful parents, and THEN see what course is taken by the authorities?
There are a few who have taken the position that defending polygamy as a separate issue is worthwhile.
It's pretty difficult to be able to convincingly say that the past polygamous practices by LDS leaders is biblical and approved, and the mainstream LDS believes in afterlife polygamy, while the polygamy practiced currently by the FLDS derived from the same root is NOT to be approved.
IMO, the polygamy defenders are doing poorly.
How old are the pregnant ones? How many under 18 already have one or more children? Please source your comment with a link.
BTW, are you saying that if it's ONLY five, and even though there may be girls aged 15 with babies, as long as they aren't presently pregnant at 13 it's OK?
Good to see you, PYW...excellent post.
re: "afterlife polygamy"...it also includes "afterlife polyandry."
According to the LDS "Church Handbook of Instructions,"p. 73 of the 1998 edition, as cited by poster Paridel @ http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2004551/posts?q=1&;page=283 LDS contemporary practices embraces polyandry, not just polygamy: “A living woman may be sealed to only one husband. If she is sealed to a husband and later divorced, she must receive a cancellation of that sealing from the First Presidency before she may be sealed to another man in her lifetime and later: A deceased woman may be sealed to all men to whom she was legally married during her life.”
The first sealing sentence reinforces the LDS doctrine of the eternal covenant of celestial marriage for men with multiple wives. The second excerpt matches LDS 19th century history, when it allowed & even encouraged these sealings (women to more than one man) to be done.
It’s this line, “A deceased woman may be sealed to all men to whom she was legally married during her life.” coupled with historical examples that shows contemporary Mormonism to be a polyandrist religion when it comes to eternal marital relationships.
We are not only talking about historical sealings. We are talking about current rituals sanctioned by the church.
I guess this would constitute another "division" between the two affiliations of the same Mormon faith. (Could you just imagine fLDS catering to eternal polyandry?)
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