Turkish Site A Neolithic 'Supernova'

Washington Times ^ | 4-21-2008 | Nicholas Birch

[blam]

GGG Ping.

[Oratam]

The people who erected them did not even have pottery or domesticated wheat. They lived in villages, but were hunters, not farmers.

Every thing I've ever read about the rise of civilization is thrown on its head.

[orebuck07]

Have you ever been in a . . . in a Turkish prison?

[DoughtyOne]

Once again, another great find and post Blam. Thank you.

[FormerACLUmember]

Amazing. 10,000 BC for real!

[JulienBenda]

I think this find may well help confirm the original homeland of the Indo-Europeans—from Anatolia it is theorized that the forefathers of modern day Europeans (most, at least), Iranians, Armenians and groups from northern India originated. Maybe an Indo-European linguist could confirm...

[DoughtyOne]

Wish I were more knowledgable about the issue you address. I do understand what your point is, but I’m sure sketchy on that field of study. Interesting thought none the less... it seems to make sense. Thank you.

[JOAT]

Nevermind wheels or writing, the people who erected them did not even have pottery or domesticated wheat. They lived in villages, but were hunters, not farmers.

Um..yeah.

Why would hunters give a rats ass about building a solar/star calculator? It seems that would be a bit more important to people who had some form of real civilization, not people who chase down game to subsist.

If all your time is spent killing animals to live you dont erect monuments.

Seems the timeline for 'pottery and wheat' needs updating from this find, not forcing one's preconceived notions onto the find.

[Publius6961]

Every thing I've ever read about the rise of civilization is thrown on its head.

Not so fast.
Unless they were hunter-gatherers, I'm not buying it.

Art, or labor-intensive forms of worship cannot exist where every ounce of waking energy is need for mere survival. If they had the time and energy to create what is described, there is a lot of missing extenuating and necessary information that made it possible.

[Caramelgal]

Why would hunters give a rats ass about building a solar/star calculator?

I didn’t see any mention in the article of this site being a solar/star calculator. But then it’s not inconceivable that ancient people, even hunter-gatherers would have been interesting in tracking the movement of heavens and not solely out of any kind of spiritual beliefs, but because keeping track of the seasons would have been very important to their survival especially if they were hunting animals that migrated with the seasons or gathering plants that bore fruit only during certain times of year.

It seems that would be a bit more important to people who had some form of real civilization, not people who chase down game to subsist.

Understand that by this time, hunting was a more organized, cooperative and sophisticated activity than just some hairy guy in a loin cloth running down an antelope on foot and clubbing it over the head with a big rock.

Art, or labor-intensive forms of worship cannot exist where every ounce of waking energy is need for mere survival. If they had the time and energy to create what is described, there is a lot of missing extenuating and necessary information that made it possible.

But art is very evident in cave paintings of people who were purely hunter-gatherers as was the evident need for self expression.



And ancient farming was also a very labor intensive activity. Imagine tilling by hand with simple tools, planting each and every seed by hand, weeding and harvesting without the aid of domesticated beasts of burden or wheeled carts.

With no evidence of houses or graves near the stones, Mr. Schmidt thinks the hilltop was a site of pilgrimage for communities within a radius of roughly 100 miles.

I think this is a fascinating and important find because it dates to the period when mankind was making the transition from nomadic hunter-gatherers composed of closely related family clans and interacting with other clans and constructing the permanent gathering places that would one day become permanent settlements, villages, towns, cities and even suburban sprawl :),

[vetvetdoug]

I wonder if the Genetic Research from the National Geographic Society will correlate well with this finding?

[SunkenCiv]

Anatoliaopics:

Oldest Swords Found In Turkey (3,300BC)
Discovery Channel | 3-25-2003 | Rossella Lorenzi
Posted on 03/30/2003 4:37:06 PM PST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/880260/posts

Italian Archaeologist: Anatolia - Home To First Civilization On Earth
Beku Today | 6-20-2003
Posted on 06/22/2003 9:14:54 AM PDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/933606/posts

Layers of clustered apartments hide artifacts of ancient urban life
San Francisco Chronicle | Monday, April 18, 2005 | David Perlman
Posted on 04/20/2005 9:26:57 AM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1387451/posts

German Paper Reports World’s Oldest Temple Is In Sanliurfa
(Turkey- 10,000BC)
Turkish Daily News | 1-21-2006
Posted on 01/21/2006 10:34:38 AM PST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1562301/posts

Did we plough up the Garden of Eden?
First Post | October 17, 2006
Posted on 10/17/2006 9:10:35 AM EDT by NYer
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1720793/posts

Revealing Urla’s underwater treasures
Turkish Daily News | Friday, February 16, 2007 | unattributed
Posted on 02/16/2007 11:48:41 PM PST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1786422/posts

Ancient Wooden Anchor Discovered (World’s Oldest)
Newswise | 5-15-2007 | University Of Haifa
Posted on 05/15/2007 2:04:27 PM PDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1834087/posts

Is this the world’s oldest statue? [Anatolia, Gobekli Tepe]
The First Post | November 24, 2006 | Sean Thomas
Posted on 11/26/2007 12:01:06 PM EST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1930666/posts

[SunkenCiv]

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[SunkenCiv]

A Journey To 9,000 Years Ago (Catalhuyuk)
Turkish Daily News | 1-17-2008 | VERC HAN Z FL O LU (tried to transliterate)
Posted on 01/17/2008 4:06:53 PM PST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1955427/posts

[Fred Nerks]

PARADISE REGAINED.link.

Gobekli Tepe - Paradise Regained? One of the most important archæological digs in the world, Gobekli Tepe in Turkey has revolutionised our understanding of hunter-gatherer culture. But could it also be the site of the Garden of Eden?

The pool in Sanliurfa linked in local legend to the Prophet Abraham...

hmmm...there's more ideology here than archaeology, methinks.

[VanShuyten]

It’s difficult to tell unless you know the climate of the location 10,000 years ago. Indo-European had words for birch, apple, cherry and beech trees, and salmon, eel, horse and dog, although the original species for the beech and birch isn’t definitely known, and salmon might refer to any of the migrating fishes. They also probably had all the common farm animals, especially the cow, and they grew or gathered some kind of grain, probably wheat or spelt. The only alcohol was mead, and the only named metal was copper. They knew snow, but “rain” is missing for some reason, as is the word for sea, although they had boats. This leads many to believe the Indo-Europeans came from north of the Black Sea or Caspian Sea. Others think that the Turkish/Georgian/Iranian area is their homeland.

[marsh2]

They had to have free time to carve the stones. That means either localized hunting, fishing and gathering was very very good, or they had some sort of localized agriculture.

[Renfield]

I agree. I’ve been a hunter for 30 years, and I know that even in game-rich spots, it’s an uncertain activity. I can’t imagine that a group of people who lived by hunting could muster enough spare time to build a megalithic complex. There must have been some sort of agriculture involved.

[JOAT]

keeping track of the seasons would have been very important to their survival

It's not terribly hard to keep track of seasons. There are 4 and I can do it without the aid of a large stone monument.

And ancient farming was also a very labor intensive activity. Imagine tilling by hand with simple tools, planting each and every seed by hand, weeding and harvesting without the aid of domesticated beasts of burden or wheeled carts.

Yes. So for these ancients to have the TIME to build a monument, which would have been vastly more time consuming without the aid of 'domesticated beasts of burden' (another big ASSUMPTION) screams the implication that they were much more advanced than our arm chair 'experts' give them credit for.

Understand that by this time, hunting was a more organized, cooperative and sophisticated activity than just some hairy guy in a loin cloth running down an antelope on foot and clubbing it over the head with a big rock.

Oh yes, I 'understand' there, buckaroo. That's my point. Time is a luxury even now. Choosing to spend it on anything other than food, shelter or defense means the culture has advanced. That implies they had a margin in food supply.

Since meat has such a short shelf life, perhaps these folks had figured out to scratch the soil earlier than our 'experts' give them credit for.

Everytime an archeologist turns a spade, everything we 'know' about the past changes. That's why it's amusing to watch people pontificate with absolute certainty and try to force events to fit their 'knowledge.'