Posted on 04/15/2008 8:34:19 PM PDT by blam
Once again, the monster size holes in this bogus theology are just so huge.
So "you" had to "believe". Hmmm... How about that. You had to accept God's truth/gift. Have you read the verse where it says in the latter days, some would "fall away". How is that possible? Heathen can't possible fall away. And according to election theology, the elect can't fall away either? Another huge hole.
Many fell away in the latter days (already happened), and they were neither the heathen or the elect, they were apostasizers.
Have you read Ephesians 1?
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." -- Ephesians 1:3-23"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
And if God has numbered a man among His children that man will, at a time of God's choosing, know his salvation has been won by Christ on the cross and he will believe.
Men are not stronger than the Holy Spirit -- "There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy" (James 4:12).
Amen. Christ will lose none whom the Father has given Him to bring home.
Because the holes in this are so huge it is hard to take it seriously.
The Bible gives us the truth; you don't have to take my word for it. Have you read Ephesians 1?
Yes I have. Please just give up on the notion that somehow "your interpretation" of a few verses is the supreme authoritative interpretation. THERE IS A REASON WHY MANY DEVOUT, LEARNED BIBLE SCHOLARS DISPUTE WHAT THOSE VERSES MEAN!
Look at all of the things you know. That certainty must be a comfort to you.
There may not have been any other possibility than Christ slain for our sins, yet it didn’t stop Him from asking, did it?
I see that your definition of humanism is the same as Secular Humanism. Got it. I think I covered that in my post.
You say that other outcomes aren’t possible, but you don’t back it up with much, and yes I’m a Trinitarian. Jesus also said, “My Father’s house has many rooms.” I have NO IDEA what that means, but it suggests more than a few interpretations.
This brings us back to the original point, I think. You absolutely know. Good for you. Beyond the salvation of Christ, I’m still unsure, and worse, you’ve done exactly nothing but spew scripture out of context to buttress such headstrong conviction of all these things that are ‘true’.
The point is, that beyond the salvation of Christ, people would come to find Him in their own way, and would create churches and denominations within their own cultural context, but with the Truth of Christ’s Salvation of Man at the center.
I’m not convinced. In fact, from what I’ve studied about demonic possession, I’m most certainly convinced that there is so much more to this struggle than I am permitted at this point to understand. I find a certain security in that, because there seems to be an infinity to the struggle in every dimension: time, spacial, spiritual, astronomical.
Modern spirituality would have you believe that we struggle against our nature to find Christ. While that might be, I also believe Lucifer actively works against us finding Christ. Lucifer actively working to subvert the will of God makes sense to me.
I also, however, believe that Christ has an active role in my daily life too.
Now, if you want me to tell you how precisely either Lucifer or God intervenes actively in my life, I’d have to tell you, “I don’t know.”
Which goes to the rather simplistic answer you supplied from my Catechism days on “Why humans?” “Why did God make them?”
“To glorify God.”
Check. I remember that too. Doesn’t answer the question though does it? It leaves some further room to speculate:
“Glorify how?”
“Glorify how long?”
“How does this glory fit into my eternal schedule, since all I’ve known is living on a timeline, and we are made in God’s image?”
“Since God has no beginning and no end, from what ‘beginning’ was God referring to when Christ said, “He was a murder from the beginning” - “What/who was murdered exactly?”
In my opinion, you make the VERY SAME MISTAKE that scientists, dogmatic about evolution as an explanation for the origin and development of humanity as a species, simply declare Darwin’s theory as FACT. They can’t explain where man began, but they are POSITIVE it isn’t some divine spark.
I believe so strongly that Christ died for my sins, that I’m prepared FOR ME to call it fact.
My calling it a fact doesn’t make the case for somebody else who doesn’t believe it. Part of what causes me to believe as strongly as I do is the immense scrutiny that the Bible, archaeology, triangulating bits of historical record from the Romans preserved over centuries, and other sources have withstood for 1000’s of years.
You reduce the selfless act of Christ’s Crucifixion to something just this side of a lottery: Some are saved, and some are damned. The saved know who they are, and the damned do not, and probably will not. Even the saved aren’t safe, because in the opinion of other people who are saved, you probably aren’t saved.
One thing I realized in living my life and studying in the Christian Faith is that the Lord’s Prayer is very specific:
“Thy will be done
On Earth, as it is in Heaven.”
I’ve come to realize that His will is not a lead-pipe cinch down here. Lucifer offered Christ all the kingdoms of the earth - because it was in his power to make that offer.
Bottom Line: Satan rules earth. I don’t get that, but I’m ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED of it. Being convinced of something, and KNOWING something are two very different things.
Sir, in a word, you don’t know either, but I can see you are absolutely convinced of your beliefs. My opinion of the doctrine of Election - it cheapens the gift of Salvation. It nullifies every act of martyrdom, every mercy shown to enemies, every act of contrition, every mother’s answered prayer that her son or daughter find Christ.
None of it matters, because the fix was in from the beginning, and all the praying in Christ’s name can’t change it - in your world.
Peter renounced Christ, as Christ predicted he would. Judas betrays Christ to the Roman’s for silver, just as Christ predicted he would.
I’ve seen your interpretation of Scripture, and it leaves room for honest questions.
Well you an know that Christ defeated satan at the cross and satan has no hold on God's people, and you can know this as the bible tells you so. Greater is He that is within you than he that is without.
Oh good grief! That's a silly semantic word game. Here are the two definitions:. Note that they are interchangeable.
ac·cept
–verb (used with object) 1. to take or receive (something offered); receive with approval or favor: to accept a present; to accept a proposal.
2. to agree or consent to; accede to: to accept a treaty; to accept an apology.
3. to respond or answer affirmatively to: to accept an invitation.
4. to undertake the responsibility, duties, honors, etc., of: to accept the office of president.
5. to receive or admit formally, as to a college or club.
6. to accommodate or reconcile oneself to: to accept the situation.
7. to regard as true or sound; believe: to accept a claim; to accept Catholicism.
8. to regard as normal, suitable, or usual.
9. to receive as to meaning; understand.
10. Commerce. to acknowledge, by signature, as calling for payment, and thus to agree to pay, as a draft.
11. (in a deliberative body) to receive as an adequate performance of the duty with which an officer or a committee has been charged; receive for further action: The report of the committee was accepted.
12. to receive or contain (something attached, inserted, etc.): This socket won't accept a three-pronged plug.
13. to receive (a transplanted organ or tissue) without adverse reaction. Compare reject (def. 7).
–verb (used without object) 14. to accept an invitation, gift, position, etc. (sometimes fol. by of).
re·ceive
–verb (used with object) 1. to take into one's possession (something offered or delivered): to receive many gifts.
2. to have (something) bestowed, conferred, etc.: to receive an honorary degree.
3. to have delivered or brought to one: to receive a letter.
4. to get or be informed of: to receive instructions; to receive news.
5. to be burdened with; sustain: to receive a heavy load.
6. to hold, bear, or contain: The nut receives a bolt and a washer. The plaster receives the impression of the mold.
7. to take into the mind; apprehend mentally: to receive an idea.
8. to accept from another by hearing or listening: A priest received his confession.
9. to meet with; experience: to receive attention.
10. to suffer the injury of: He received a terrific blow on the forehead.
11. to be at home to (visitors): They received their neighbors on Sunday.
12. to greet or welcome (guests, visitors, etc.) upon arriving: They received us at the front door.
13. to admit (a person) to a place: The butler received him and asked him to wait in the drawing room.
14. to admit into an organization, membership, etc.: to receive someone into the group.
15. to accept as authoritative, valid, true, or approved: a principle universally received.
16. to react to in the manner specified: to receive a proposal with contempt; She received the job offer with joy.
–verb (used without object) 17. to receive something.
18. to receive visitors or guests.
19. Radio. to convert incoming electromagnetic waves into the original signal.
20. to receive the Eucharist: He receives every Sunday.
“My Father’s house has many rooms.” I have NO IDEA what that means, but it suggests more than a few interpretations.
There is only one interpretation: you will abide forever in God's Presence. And they aren't "rooms", they are mansions, you will abide like royalty.
Lucifer has no hold on my soul. Having said that, he tears at the person. He tears at your family. He tears at your church. He tore at Job too.
Paul spoke mysteriously about a ‘thorn in his side’, and I often wonder what he meant by that.
I am spared, but it takes constant prayer to keep Old Hob at bay within my life, and to keep him from those I love.
Of course that's another MONSTER SIZE problem, how/why Lucifer and his minions would be doing anything, when a man's fate is sealed and they haave no say or free will to choose. You'd think Lucifer and his crew would sit back and relax, knowing that those men who are not elected are going to hell, and no effect is required to help them get there.
I don’t have doubts, except in the good doctor’s interpretation of scripture.
I’m saved, and from there I’m full of questions. How could one not be full of questions about such a thing?
I am curious about all of this which we do not see, but is there very surely.
I have NO doubts. Only a million questions about so many amazing things only God, Lucifer, the Angels and demons seem to know.
Ephesians 6:10
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.,p> 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;,p> 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly , to make known the mystery of the gospel,
6:20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
6:21 But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, shall make known to you all things:
6:22 Whom I have sent unto you for the same purpose, that ye might know our affairs, and that he might comfort your hearts.
6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
6:24 Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen
Jesus sent Lucifer falling from heaven. This viewpoint makes Lucifer into a god with more power than Christ or God. It is a ludicrous belief for a professing Christian to hold.
“Of course that’s another MONSTER SIZE problem, how/why Lucifer and his minions would be doing anything, when a man’s fate is sealed and they haave no say or free will to choose. You’d think Lucifer and his crew would sit back and relax, knowing that those men who are not elected are going to hell, and no effect is required to help them get there.”
Bingo. You know the funny thing about battle? They are so bad, so all consuming, that even when you are in one, you’ll deny it. War is depressing, and we are in one, probably more than one.
Most modern religion turns faith in God into something akin to golf - keep practicing and you’ll get it right.
First time you lose a son to something senseless, who’d the first guy in line for blame - God. Not Lucifer, God.
You go back to your priest, and instead of discussing what a vile filth scumbag coward worm Satan is, we’re asking God, “Why”. Nobody wants to talk about the Dragon in the room - that Satan rules earth, and that God’s will is something that only gets done on occasion, and usually through much prayer.
There are things to be learned about God from observing the cowardice of Lucifer and the way he works. He strikes at God through man. I won’t give him the satisfaction, and I pray through Christ Jesus that he spares my lambs and my wife from his clutches.
I’m fine with it - I feel a bit sorry that God had to sacrifice His only Son to save us, but that’s something I’m going to come to understand, I hope, when I die. How did it come to that? From the very foundation of the earth, it came down to the Blood of the Lamb. Why? I accept it from a place of utter unworthiness, but still, why?
The doctrine of Election reduces the life of Mother Theresa to something this side of trite and silly.
John 3:16
So you believe that Lucifer IS NOT actively working to subvert the will of God?! That's pure, unadultered nuts!
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