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To: BroJoeK
I'm not qualified to debate freemasonry with you.

Well, I am qualified to debate freely with you.

1) Religiously tolerant and accepting of Jews. In fascist eyes, that made them heretics.

General Franco was not Fascist, but authoritarian. He never founded a Fascist political party, but tolerated the one it was already working and had helped him in a very risky war. He did not act against Jews, neither in Spain nor in the territory of Northern Africa where a lot of Sefardim lived. He simply maintained the same stance towards them that the Catholic Church had until the 1960's: they were religiously wrong. Such stance had no political or other consequences.

A decree enacted by General Primo de Rivera in 1924 allowing any Sefardim to apply for Spanish citizenship was not revoked: during Franco's years there was no political move or other action against Jews.

On the contrary, General Franco's officers, as Sanz Briz, freely worked to save thousands of Jews. Knowing what they were doing, neither Franco nor anyone in the Spanish Foreign Office stopped or even put the blame on them.

When the Catholic Church changed its mind towards Jews in the Second Vatican Council, General Franco followed.

Those are the FACTS.

2) Political democrats (small "d"). In fascist eyes, a serious crime.

Democrats?? In America. Licio Gelli headmaster of P2, was not a democrat.

In Spain things seem to go the same way, master Luis Salat appointing a "heir" just hours before dying, in the most undemocratic fashion I can imagine.

3) A private organization, not subject to state control. In fascist eyes, intolerable.

Private?? With so many high rank civil servants...

4) An international fraternity. In fascist eyes, that made them subversive.

P2 lodge was declared by Italian Justice in 1986 a subversive conspiracy. Its headmaster was former black shirt and SS Licio Gelli.

Those are the FACTS.

General Franco had objective reasons to act against masonry, and among those reasons were not religious ones, but simply that that maybe formerly fraternity, had evolved into a market of hiden interests and a coordination center for conspiracies that threatened the mere existence of the Nation.

In addition, he did not persecute Jews, on the contrary, he contributed to save well above 50,000 of them and conservative Jews acknowledge that.

Any attempt to circumvent facts or keep locked in slogans proved untrue constitute simply a bare manipulation.

By the way, many Spaniards (and probably Italians) associate freemasonry with a shadow government, synarchy and, ultimately, manipulation.

Fraternity can never be above Life or Freedom.
35 posted on 04/16/2008 12:29:17 PM PDT by J Aguilar (Veritas vos liberabit)
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To: J Aguilar
"I'm not qualified to debate freemasonry with you."

"Well, I am qualified to debate freely with you. "

Whether Franco was "fascist" or just "authoritarian" is a matter of definitions. As I read Webster's dictionary, Franco was a fascist. But as far as I know, and as you suggest, he shared little in common with his more bellicose German and Italian colleagues.

I disagree with none of your comments regarding Franco and the Jews.

But back to Freemasonry, you are obviously describing a different experience than ours in America.

In American, Masons are just one of many similar fraternal organization, albeit one of the oldest and largest. But they are all good, decent and law abiding. Most are dedicated to some charity, and of course, to helping each other out. Nothing wrong with that.

Masons are particularly distinguished, since many of our Founding Fathers, including George Washington, were Masons, and many, if not most presidents since have been Masons. Including, I'm pretty sure, President Bush.

In short, there are no better Americans than Masons.

Now, if you are telling us that somehow, when those same good and decent Masons cross the border into Spain, they suddenly become evil conspiratorial monsters, well, that's not a phenomenon I'm familiar with.

What do you suppose would cause such a thing?

36 posted on 04/16/2008 4:21:04 PM PDT by BroJoeK (A little historical perspective....)
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