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To: P-Marlowe; DelphiUser; SkyPilot; MHGinTN; metmom
How about a simple yes or no?

Yes, Sarai gave her slavegirl to her husband as a surrogate wife (Gen. 16:3). Was the purpose for Abram to have wife #2? (No, are you crazy? Do you think Sarai wanted competition as either a wife or parent-sharing?) Was the purpose for Hagar to conceive & deliver a child surrogately? (Yes) Does a slaveholder have the absolute authority to command her slave to have sex with her husband? (I don't think so; but I know others read Scripture differently & disagree with me on that). Does nailing the word "wife" to the bedpost of a man about to have sex with his wife's servant girl make her his "wife?" (I don't think so; but I guess you conclude differently)

1,869 posted on 04/09/2008 9:55:15 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Actually simce the child would technically belong to Sarai, she could have got rid of Hagar and kept the baby as her own...

But she tells Abram to get rid of both...


1,870 posted on 04/09/2008 9:58:35 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Colofornian

Because the child was the child of a slave and therefore a slave of Sarai also...


1,872 posted on 04/09/2008 9:59:55 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Colofornian
Yes, Sarai gave her slavegirl to her husband as a surrogate wife (Gen. 16:3).

By yes, you are apparently denying that Sarai gave Hagar as a "wife" to Abram. Is that your position? I couldn't really tell, since you qualified your "yes" so much that it kinda sounded like a "no".

Where in the Hebrew text is the word "surrogate"? I can't seem to find that word anywhere in the text.

Will you admit that the word "surrogate" has been added by you and is not in the original text.

1,873 posted on 04/09/2008 10:03:15 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Colofornian; P-Marlowe; restornu; SkyPilot; MHGinTN; metmom
I Said: How about a simple yes or no?

U Said: Yes

so Abraham was polygamous, God specifically approved of him and blessed him for his righteousness while he was polygamous, thus polygamy is not a sin or God could not have done that. God does not change, therefore, since it was OK with God then, it's OK with God now.

You go on in your post talking about the whys and wherefores and it's really not germane to my point, there are no exceptions to sin, you do what God says when God says it or you are in opposition to his will it's simple.

I am now going to give you guys a whole bunch more ammo, because I am being 100% honest in my thoughts and beliefs. I'll start with some definitions:

Kiddery - The marrying of children either to each other, or to an adult - is a sin.
Adultery - Sex between people not legally and lawfully married (most restrictive interpretation I can manage both law of the land and law of God, if you are recognized by one and not the other, tough, no sex.) Unmarried children who practice this before marriage hurt themselves and their future spouses, Married people hurt their families wife, Children, etc and there will be children if they are keeping God's commands unless there is a medical problem (then they should consider adoption...).
Polygamy - The legal and lawful (both by God's law and Secular Law) union of one man and multiple women
Divorce - The cessation of a marital relationship, often with children in the middle being hurt the most. Serial Polygamy - The practice of Divorce and remarriage to other people than the original spouse. I think (yeah you guys are gonna have fun with this :^) that God has absolutely no tolerance for kiddery, Adultery, or Divorce. All the above injure innocent children who have no say in the matter, however, Marriage is recommended of God, if a man can handle more than one wife (emotionally and financially my hat's off to him) God would let him marry a second wife. If a man is so estranged from his wife that he wants a divorce, God would prefer that he stay married, continue to support and be involved in the Children's lives and work toward a second wife for his emotional and physical needs. God would rather have the family stay intact for the children, God would protect the innocent.

Today we have divorce as a first and only remedy for a couple who have separated themselves from each other, the children become pawns in the battle for superiority over the other spouse, and after it's over, the children often become bastards after the fact being disowned by their fathers or mothers, with limited, strained and sometimes even dangerous arrangements over visitation. Can anyone actually believe that this is how God intended for marriage to be?

I can't.

The males (they are not men) who treated their wives and children in this manner (Physical, mental and sexual abuse) are animals, and deserve to be treated to the harshest penalties the law allows, Males who treat their one wife the same way should be treated the same way by the law. Males who treat children in this way should be treated harsher than allowed by law. Their mistreatment of their fellow beings will not be ignored by God, but it has nothing to do with polygamy, they just happened to take advantage of the secretive nature of the polygamous group to cover their sins, there are people equally deserving of our scorn and wrath who are not polygamists, let's not blame this on polygamy, it's the males who make me ashamed to call them men who are to blame, let us all stand up and be men let us live in truth, honesty and righteousness with each other, let us keep the laws of the land and of God and be his servants. The servants of God should never be found accepting the wages of sin. Be men.
2,221 posted on 04/10/2008 2:46:40 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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